NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

Helpful - thank you.

I know its not a criminal case - but since Uptons big idea is that women must be forced to stay in the room to watch him get changed (and to what extent we have no evidence - but certainly to underwear) - Sandie would have been forced to watch him commit the crime of exposure.

If he demanded women change in front of him or the micro agression of not doing so would make him laydee cry - then he would have been guilty of the crime of voyerism.

So you know - but for Sandie Peggie saying - naw me, naw now, naw ever wee laddie - crimes would have been committed and she could freely say that man is a man.

JR - you're on a hiding to nowhere with this career path in defending this madness. Ask NC for some lessons and come join the right side of history. Well herstory.

This constant whining about misgendering and the suggestion that Naomi's use of male pronouns is causing witnesses to misgender him too...

Complete tosh! JR is just worried that we keep seeing that they don't really see him as a woman and can't keep up the pretense.

If someone starting referring to my mother or sister as a man or he, I wouldn't start doing the same. It's imprinted on my brain woman and she.

The fact people keep 'misgendering' him is proof they know exactly what sex he is.

If Searle really thought she wouldn't have known he wasn't a biological female, and really saw him as a woman, she'd never have 'mis-gendered' him either. Even Russell has done it many times.

But ok blame it all on Naomi.

The fact is, he is a man.Trans'women' are men. Suggesting the hearing isn't fair due to Naomi saying so is ridiculous. It wouldn't be fair if she had to say woman and she. Because it would make no sense to argue that another woman should not be in the female changing rooms. That was the main reason for the judge allowing male pronouns in the first place.iirc.

I really feel that JR is desperate now and just trying to grab onto anything that will make the claimants side look bad. I'm half expecting her to turn on the waterworks or crybully in an attempt to make the other side look like evil monsters.

I think the 'any answer rather than admitting they don't know' is carried on the Y chromosome😁

The answer 'TBH I really don't know, we must look it up' coming from an otherwise very knowledgeable woman is... highly endearing
[I nearly said 'sexy' 😊]

Isn't sexual harassment one of SP's claims?

(re the Bench Book changes)

Agree. Remember that, when ChatGPT was trained, the trainers considered whether the answers it gave were helpful, not whether they were right. It is often wildly wrong. For example, I've just asked it to list some Italian cities ending in N and it has offered Brenner-Brennero, which clearly doesn't end in N, along with Lendin and Carbon, neither of which are cities in Italy. It hasn't suggested Milan.

Re: handbags, how do people cope with multiple handbag switching? I have one handbag which has everything I need exactly where I need it and I use it every single day. I can't imagine the additional organisation required if switching from day to day. Or do you have each one stocked with pen, notepad, plasters, spare carrier bags, safety pins, mini torch, rape alarm, loose change, tissues and so on and just transfer your keys and bank cards? Thought I'd ask while we're still on a break!

Obiter, (just found out that this means 'in passing'), will people (The Good Law Project) therefore be kicking the tyres of this argument until it is specifically considered by the SC?

Crossword?

At my girls' Grammar School, fairly middle class. we were heavily pushed towards nursing. It was the only career advice I remember getting. Being a doctor was never mentioned.

Our most famous old girl was Prime Minister at the time.

It's like the position we all put ourselves in when someone asks us for directions in the street. Somehow it seems rude/impossible just to say 'I don't know'. So we just ramble on about "Well, if you go just beyond the church there is a path that .... I've never been that way, but my sister says it isn't that far from the church and ...". And the poor questioner has to be terribly polite and appreciative whilst desperate to get away and ask someone who knows.

I should be like AI and include a disclaimer: PlasticAcrobat's directions are experimental ...

Honestly I think NC should concede on the heresy wording. I’m not saying she’s wrong, but just that there’s more than 1 way to skin a cat - she could carry on her cross that in a way that has no recourse for objections.

I’m not sure “heresy” is adding anything to her approach, she could reword the Question and get the job done. Sometimes saying something in simple terms is better ie “continued persecution of SP for protected beliefs” or whatever instead of:

asks whether the attempts to "punish Ms Peggie was "essentially because Sandie Peggie was guilty of the same heresy that has so exercised Ms Russell in being prepared that Dr Upton is a man".

Given the public attention this has already received and the huge support for SP, I almost hope they do this. It would be the final nail in their coffin.

You can get handbag inserts (don’t know the technical name) that you put all your stuff in. You then just have to switch that between bags.

I did not claim I was fact checking. I am quite GenAI literate, thanks, and am very aware of its limitations.

Given the confusing amount of different entries on this thread I provided prompts which would highlight the key points being raised in order to summarise them. It’s better than google at that.

There is often a knee jerk reaction to GenAI but is as useful a tool as many of the others we use here. It is not, of course, evidence, facts or a peer reviewed submission — and I did not claim it as such and was very clear of the source so folk could keep that in mind — but this is a thread entirely made up of mostly speculation and guesswork!!! So it can be helpful in those circs!

That's bizarre - how can they be helpful if they aren't right??!?

Honestly I think NC should concede on the heresy wording. I’m not saying she’s wrong, but just that there’s more than 1 way to skin a cat - she could carry on her cross that in a way that has no recourse for objections.

I agree. She's made her stand but there's nothing additional to gain. It will mean a climbdown and a smug JR but an effective advocate will have developed the skill of swallowing their pride.

Repeating my earlier reply here:

I did not claim I was fact checking. I am quite GenAI literate, thanks, and am very aware of its limitations.
Given the confusing amount of different entries on this thread I provided prompts which would highlight the key points being raised in order to summarise them. It’s better than google at that.
There is often a knee jerk reaction to GenAI but is as useful a tool as many of the others we use here. It is not, of course, evidence, facts or a peer reviewed submission — and I did not claim it as such and was very clear of the source so folk could keep that in mind — but this is a thread entirely made up of mostly speculation and guesswork!!! So it can be helpful in those circs!

@guinnessguzzler I agree changing handbags is a faff.

However, influencers use inserts like these https://handbagangels.com or google handbag angels.

I have a variety of bags and they all have nappies, wipes, tissues (this sounds organised but is in fact just messy). My car keys stay in a bowl on the sideboard and my phone I always carry around with me. I don't tend to take a purse out as I have all my cards on my phone.

Not that it matters but It will, of course, be chalked up as a huge win for Upton, on Reddit, if she does.

You use something like this and lift it in and out. https://www.coopersofstortford.co.uk/handbag-organiser-orange/?SKU=XSS169_OR&src=IGB9B2&srsltid=AfmBOoplq7NwXlCFfXQcb6i1brXP10XmXbtZZw5nF1hJ_3dCI6LfQrUA6ok

I first came across these when I noticed that my midwife had a different coloured handbag at every home visit.

You cannot! Can you?! That is genuinely amazing and I will be getting one immediately. Like all the best solutions it is both genius and, once you know, completely obvious. Thank you!

No, just one of many general knowledge questions where I know ChatGPT gives answers that are obviously wrong. Handy whenever someone tries to quote it as the source of all knowledge.

I appreciate that you weren't claiming it was evidence, I'm just confused by the idea that the creators/trainers of AI systems thought an inaccurate answer could be helpful.