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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

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26
GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 14:10

Hehe . NC is asking the judge to tell JR to keep her trap shut. And can we please just get on with it.

JR looking quite meek now. But wants an apology.

Voice white low and quaking a bit. Sounds like she's about to cry. (She isn't)

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:11

JR

Bigger whiiiiiinge

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 14:11

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:09

From herald
2:07pm
Ms Cunningham said the potential consequences of "asymmetry of treatment" are simply not to be contemplated at this stage.
2:07pm
Ms Cunningham said that Ms Russell said her use of "ordinary language" is an interference with article six rights.
And yet all she asks the judge to do is ask Ms Cunningham to reflect.
"Quite a lot of tribunal time has been wasted in this way," Ms Cunningham adds.
2:05pm
While Ms Cunningham has no concern over Ms Russell's professionalism, the same cannot be said for how Ms Russell views her, she said.
She also accuses Ms Russell of engaging in "futile" objections on Ms Cunningham's use of pronouns for Dr Upton.

So we what the late starts this week have been about now then ...

Delphigirl · 24/07/2025 14:11

MyrtleLion · 24/07/2025 14:08

Thank you, but didn’t the SC ruling say that for the purposes of the Equality Act, female and male mean biologically female and biologically male, and that’s the binding precedent? Therefore the comments about changing rooms may be obiter, but the principle, which includes changing rooms and toilets etc, is that those words mean biological sex as recorded at birth, and that is legally binding.

And that will be difficult if not impossible to argue against.

Yes quite agree.
As I say all JR has is to spin the obiter point in relation to changing rooms… but it isn’t going to succeed!

tribunalObserver · 24/07/2025 14:11

JR #bekind

CriticalCondition · 24/07/2025 14:11

Ooh, I think JR is about to say be KIND...

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:11

Whinging has stopped

ickky · 24/07/2025 14:11

I'm looking forward to Dr Foran's commentary tonight!

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:11

from herald
2:09pm
Ms Russell said it is "unfortunate" that Ms Cunningham has not apologised.
2:10pm
Ms Russell said her concern have been raised "appropriately" in public and private at all times.
She does not believe there has been "asymmetry" and does not believe the judge has treated one side better than the other.

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:12

Back to the witness

CriticalCondition · 24/07/2025 14:12

Bingo.

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 14:12

NC will reference the SC judgement in her summing up and point to the paragraphs where they talk about single sex spaces.

MummBRaaarrrTheEverLeaking · 24/07/2025 14:12

JR wants a fucking apology!! Is she on glue??

RobinEllacotStrike · 24/07/2025 14:12

JR becoming more and more Dolores Umbridge by the hour.

Shortshriftandlethal · 24/07/2025 14:13

JR getting arsey and immature because things are not going her way and her witnesses are not always coherent.

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:13

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:11

from herald
2:09pm
Ms Russell said it is "unfortunate" that Ms Cunningham has not apologised.
2:10pm
Ms Russell said her concern have been raised "appropriately" in public and private at all times.
She does not believe there has been "asymmetry" and does not believe the judge has treated one side better than the other.

Ms Russell said her concern have been raised "appropriately" in public and private at all times.
She does not believe there has been "asymmetry" and does not believe the judge has treated one side better than the other.

Bang goes the appeal on procedural grounds.

AngelinaJoyless · 24/07/2025 14:13

ItsNotUnusualToBe · 24/07/2025 09:56

I read so much Terry Pratchett that I forget that hag can be used as an insult. And that reminds me - in my head Bez's Fifer is a MacNacFeegle cousin of Rob Anybody. Maybe named Curt O'Porta (am aiming for something riffing off Court Reporter).

Am following this avidly and have mastered the art of scrolling-on where necessary and utterly gripped elsewhere.

So far behind so haven't RTFT, but I also have a NacMacFeegle speaking. I'm surprised we haven't heard the wailie-wailie yet.

chilling19 · 24/07/2025 14:13

JR is so patronising. So annoying.

NotAGentleReminder · 24/07/2025 14:13

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 13:56

Yes. It came across as unnecessarily antagonistic to call out JR in a question to a witness. Plus I think NC would look more likeable/reasonable if she does walk back slightly, won’t overall damage her presentation.

Hmm, I thought JR was being unnecessarily antagonistic interrupting and insisting on wrong-sex pronouns being used, when it had been agreed at the beginning of the tribunal that 'he' could be used to refer to Dr Upton throughout proceedings. I understood the point NC was making - that SP was regarded as a heretic because she said DU is a man and JR is similarly treating NC as though NC is a heretic by insisting she use wrong-sex pronouns. NC wasn't calling JR a heretic.

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 14:13

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 14:10

Hehe . NC is asking the judge to tell JR to keep her trap shut. And can we please just get on with it.

JR looking quite meek now. But wants an apology.

Voice white low and quaking a bit. Sounds like she's about to cry. (She isn't)

What is the judge like throughout this? Stoic?

HoolitThatFuse · 24/07/2025 14:14

Oy vey! Enough already with the 'kind' !

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 14:14

This has spectacularly backfired on JR.

chilling19 · 24/07/2025 14:14

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:13

Ms Russell said her concern have been raised "appropriately" in public and private at all times.
She does not believe there has been "asymmetry" and does not believe the judge has treated one side better than the other.

Bang goes the appeal on procedural grounds.

👆

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:14

Loving NC right now.

Witness isn't loving her right now

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 14:15

Oh wow Naomi has just said the exact thing I said in my earlier post.
If someone referred to a female as he, she wouldn't do the same.

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