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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #41

1000 replies

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:08

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39
Thread 40: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378996-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-40

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:11

Witnesses in the hearing so far with skeleton chronology:

Monday, 3 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Tuesday, 4 February 2025
Sandie Peggie

Wedneday, 5 February 2025
Sandie Peggie
Maya Forstater
Mr Peggie (Sandie Peggie's husband)
Nicole Peggie (Sandie Peggie's daughter)

Thursday, 6 February 2025
a row about disclosure particularly over BMA documents
Sheila Bell (Sandie Peggie's mum)
Beth Upton

Friday, 7 February 2025
very late start, massive row over disclosure, agreed that Beth Upton would start giving evidence on Monday

Monday 10 February 2025
Beth Upton

Tuesday 11 February 2025
Beth Upton
collapse of public access

Wednesday 12 February 2025
Beth Upton

Thursday 13 February 2025
Esther Davidson

Friday 14 February 2025
Esther Davidson

a break of many months

Wednesday 16 July 2025
Isla Bumba

Thursday 17 July 2025
Gillian Malone

Friday 18 July 2025
Elspeth Pitt
Louise Curran
the omnishambles ending provided by the statement from NHS Fife

Monday 21 July 2025
a late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lottie Myles

Tuesday 22 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Kate Searle

Wednesday 23 July 2025
another late start seemingly with the panel and lawyers in discussions about something
Lauren Harris
Kate Searle

Thursday 24 July 2025
Angela Glancy
during AG's testimony there was a row over NC's entitlement to use correct-sex pronouns
Ann Hamilton (scheduled but might change)

OP posts:
nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:13

This is a list of Abbreviations used by Tribunal Tweets and has been taken from their substack

Claimant, respondents, counsel, members of the court

C/SP - Claimant, Sandy Peggie
NC - Naomi Cunningham, C’s barrister
MG - Margaret Gribbons, C’s solicitor
R/Board - first respondent, Fife Health Board
R2/DU - second respondent, Dr B Upton
Rs – first and second respondents
JR - Jane Russell, KC, barrister for respondents
AW - Adam Watson, solicitor for respondents
J - Employment Judge Alexander Kemp
ET - Employment Tribunal
P1, P2 - additional panel members; CM Russell, L Brown

Witnesses/Frequently Referenced Personnel of NHS Fife

MF - Maya Forstater, CEO of Sex Matters
DP - Darren Peggie, Claimant's husband
NP - Nicole Peggie, Claimant's daughter
SB - Sheila Bell, Claimant's mother
ED - Esther Davidson, SP’s line manager
IB – Isla Bumba, NHS Fife Equality and Diversity Lead Officer
KS - Kate Searle, A&E consultant
SF - Stuart Fraser, SP’s RCN Rep
AG - Angela Glancy, headed up in SP investigation
VV – Vic Valentine, Equality Network

Abbreviations for frequently used terms (not exhaustive)

AE - Accident & emergency department
B&H - bullying and harassment
CR - changing room
CX – complaint
DX - disciplinary procedure or process
FtP - fitness to practice
GC /SR: gender critical or sex realists. Belief that biological sex is important, immutable and different from gender identity
GI – Gender identity is a person's internal sense of their own gender, which may or may not align with their birth sex.
HI - hate incident
HR - Human Rights
IX - investigation
PCP - provision, criteria or practice is a rule, policy, or practice that can put people at a disadvantage based on certain characteristics. The term is used in employment law to assess whether an employer's actions create different outcomes for employees based on their characteristics.
SocMed - social media
SM - Sex Matters
TM – transman (person born female who claims a male gender identity)
TMAM - transmen are men
TW – Transwoman (person born male who claims a female gender identity)
TWAW - transwomen are women
OfS - Once for Scotland
EA - Equality Act 2010
PC - protected characteristic; 9 under EA
RA - risk assessment

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 14:21

The answer is still no.

Women are allowed to say no.

No I will not use wrong sex pronouns.

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:23

2:21pm
Ms Cunningham asked whether this investigation was "controlled from the very top".
She said Ms Peggie always had to be punished for standing up to a man in the women's changing room.
"I don't agree with that," Ms Glancey replied.

UpDo · 24/07/2025 14:25

Checking in

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:26

Panel asking quite a few questions here.

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:26

Would it be possible for people to turn their attention to this post by@FayeRCfrom a previous thread:

I have a similar court case in England's side which aims to protect single-sex facilities for women. It is in need of support to cover legal fees and can be found by searching for Faye Russell-Caldicott on crowdjustice.com

"I have issued an employment tribunal complaint against NHS England for indirect discrimination on the basis of sex (women), religion (Islam), philosophical belief (gender critical) and disability (PTSD) for having a policy in place which effectively renders the supposed single-sex toilet, changing room and showering facilities as mixed-sex."

There's more information here: https://sex-matters.org/case-briefings/faye-russell-caldicott-v-nhs-england/

OP posts:
ThatCyanCat · 24/07/2025 14:26

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:23

2:21pm
Ms Cunningham asked whether this investigation was "controlled from the very top".
She said Ms Peggie always had to be punished for standing up to a man in the women's changing room.
"I don't agree with that," Ms Glancey replied.

Weird answer to a yes or no question. Bit mealy mouthed.

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:27

ThatCyanCat · 24/07/2025 14:26

Weird answer to a yes or no question. Bit mealy mouthed.

The word "no" sounds very defensive, and almost automatically a lie.

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:27

People have been asking how to show their support to Sandie and Naomi.

Is there any way we can show our support and gratitude to you @nauticant?

ThatCyanCat · 24/07/2025 14:28

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:27

The word "no" sounds very defensive, and almost automatically a lie.

Edited

It's a much flatter and more definite statement, that's for sure.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 14:29

From TT

We resume:

NC - we are quite concerned as an asymmetry in treatment..

J - do we need to hear in private

NC - no
JR - don't know

J - continue for now

NC - of counsel for parties, I've engaged in no attacks or professionalism, my objection to the premise on langauge was flatly factual, about language. Beyond doubt JR is exorcised (exercised, rather than haunted) no doubt on instruction of client on the qu of language. nothing arguably pejorative about exErcised, not did I accuse her of heresy. One aspect of C case, is SP has been treated as heretic deserving of punish ment, someone who won't pay lip service to GI belief system. Not novel or fanciful, in addams v edin rape centre, heresy hunt in those words were used. I have no time impuning JR professionalism, converse not true.

(The Ring liked that, Orange Blerp)

Clear from public part, and to a greater degree in private

NC - same time JR granted repeated objecton to DU correct sex pronouns on which you have already ruled. JR does not suggest grounds to revisit, nor appealed. JR suggests my use or ordinary language interferes with art 6 rights, despite that imp claim only inviting me to reflect

NC - quite a lot of time wasted that way.

So C team has reflected, in response to asymmetry not to be contemplated at this stage. Suggest we resume and complete evidence, but ask any further speeches about my language are restrained unless there's an application

Fifer : Allow me to translate legal tae normal fowk lingo ken. Richt up yer cat's erse gub, pronoun polis get tae Fruchie, n keep yer wheesht while I work on yer witness.

Nods to Big Sond "Mlaird"

J - so far as the left over objection?

NC - as to ask qu again in similar terms
JR - don't know what terms NC will use, support reask with diff words.
J - response to the rest?
JR - briefly yes, unfortunate it didn't contain an apology.

Fifer : aye ye noticed did ye, that NC is gieen NAE FUCKS tae yer second client, and further NAE FUCKS AGAIN tae the first ane.

JR DOn't believe exorcise right, implies heat which was clearly not there. My concern about impact on proceedings not just art 6. Also DU art 8 right to be treated with dig and respect and witness right not to be subhject to harassment.

Fifer HE WIS a witness, he's no a witness the day but.

JR My objections professional at all times, public and private. FOr you to decide but don't believe there's been asymmetry, but Bench book contains how we should treat eachother in a prof context. When we are working together, not just right we treat eachother in accordance, it's also kind. nothing further to say.

NC - nothing to add

J - ask the qu, slowly
J - see how we get on.

NC - long digretion, qu was reason SP had to be punished for heresy, JR on instruction, for not adhering. AG- disagree NC - JR says you have been confused/upset by correct sex pronouns, cutting across your use of F pronouns. Am I right you've not been confused by them?
AG - I know you mean DU
NC - no signs of distress
AG - no but I've misgendered DU and it's not something I'd normally do.
NC - trained yourself into the habit
AG - it's what I've been asked to do
NC - tricky to remember

VROOOM VROOOOM

AG - no

Fifer : aye it's deid easy ken. It's like the opposite o that Roy Walker in his teal sports jaikit wid say

"Jist say whit ye dinnae see."

NC - if I called Miss Elves he, it wouldn't confuse you because its apparent
AG - if you use diff ones can be confusing.
NC - you would yourself revert to using usual pronouns
AG - you can see earlier i misgendered as i followed you, if you'd done that to another colleague I may have done same
NC - I suggest not, you have trained yourself and my use of correct sense pronouns disrupted that and used correct sex pronouns

VROOM VROOM is heard. Is it The Ring?

AG - disagree

NC - in chief asked if approp for SP to say something to DU in F CR, you said don't confront, speak to manager

NC - imagine not DU, doesn't dress as a woman, big masculine manly man, no attempt to appear F, lets call him Pete. If SP in CR in a bra and trousers and Pete walked in. Decent thing for Pete is to back out.

Big Sond is beamin likes, he's jist crossed oot Pete on his Bingo Caird. Finally some justice in this room.

AG - yes he's a man
NC - if he shuts the door after walking in
AG - sandie would be right to say its the no its the F CR
NC - 1237 - 2nd jan GM email to a group, not you attaching datix, 1236 see GM forwards to Norma Beverage NB
AG - director of nursing,
NC - you knew that role?
AG yes
NC quite important role
AG - yes
NC - email says thanks for info this is urgent needs HR advice and potential reputational damage. SHows board taking seriously
AG - yes
NC - NB thinks could be significant rep damage. She was right?
AG - don;t know
NC not AG - not following coverage no.
NC - is the rep damage from letting SP say no to DU
AG - don't know
NC - from start senior people involved knew SP needed to be punished for the offence of not agreeing to use of CR
AG - no.

Paunel 1 - at start of evidence taken to 776, asked about notes, said it was paperwork mentioned things in it
P1 - first was susx check list, what is that?
AG - check list of have you done everything meant to do, contacts, representative etc
P1 - diff from risk assessment?
AG - yes

Fifer : RISK ASSESSMENTS DO NOT EXIST IN THIS DOJO. Sorry did ye see Cobra Kai, triple distilled nostalgia, was aboot greetin by the end ae the first episode it wis that guid.

P1 - did you see risk assessment
AG- just chekc list and record.
P1 - around same time AH gave you names DU ED KS and SP how do you decide who to speak to?
AG - anyone involved, seen it, been part of process eg ED and LC look after that area and SP went to them, so needed to know that.
P1 - who decides
AG - ix manager
P1 - you?
AG - yes
P1 - what did you do with names given

Fifer : pit them in twa columns. Guid Guy, and Wank. Standard Procedure.

I

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QKSQQYYvWv0

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:29

from herald
2:28pm
Here's the full transcript in the row between Sandie Peggie's legal team and NHS Fife's lawyers.
Ms Cunningham said: “I am concerned about what we perceive as asymmetry in the tribunal's treatment of both sides.
“I have not engaged in attacks on Ms Russell’s professionalism and character and my question was based on my objection to her use of language. My question is factual beyond doubt.
“It is beyond doubt Ms Russell is exorcised on behalf of her client on their instruction and there is nothing pejorative about the word exorcised and I did not accuse her of heresy.
“One aspect of my claimant’s case is she has been treated as a heretic deserving of punishment - heresy here is shorthand for someone who doesn’t believe in and won’t play lip service to the gender identity belief system.
“That is not a novel or fanciful idea.”
Ms Cunningham added she had not attacked the professionalism of Ms Russell but argued the “converse is true”, particularly in private sessions to a “considerably greater degree”.
"Quite a lot of tribunal time has been wasted in this way," Ms Cunningham adds.
In response Ms Russell said: “It is unfortunate what I have just heard did not contain an apology.
“I do not accept the characterisation of my intervention as being exorcised as that indicates a level of emotion that was plainly not there.
“My concern is about the impact it is having on the fairness of the proceedings and Dr Upton’s rights to be treated with dignity and respect.”
Ms Russell said she had always raised her concerns “appropriately and professionally”.
She also rejected that the Employment Judge Sandy Kemp had “treated one side more fairly than the other”.

Hoardasurass · 24/07/2025 14:30

Why is jr trying to police NC's speach and relitigate the use of pronouns now. Is this her version of a squirrel

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 14:30

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:27

People have been asking how to show their support to Sandie and Naomi.

Is there any way we can show our support and gratitude to you @nauticant?

I was thinking that the other day. In the absence of flowers and a big bottle of spirits (which given the anonymity of this site would be impossible), I'd be happy to contribute to Naut's charity of choice (or category of charity) as a thank you.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 14:31

From TT

P1 - what did you do with names given
AG - organised diary invites and sent letters
P1 - your remit to decide to change list, add people
AG - yes esp in an iv joe blogs might come up and you think I might speak to them.
P1 - 513 - NC asked qu, took you to para 18-20, you decided not to do anything wiht that

P1 - what did you think when you read it, speak to anyone
AG - spoke to MSF, about what statement said. MSF from HR, said some incidents, previous info in statement, nothing else. Discussed whole statement.
P1 - thats all.
J - 1131 - bottom page feb email ED - AH coped to EH looks like 6 docs attached - SP and DU attached, what are the outlook ones.
AG - notes spoken of earlier
J - what
AG - check list, B&H, OH referal
J - any handover from ED?
AG - no, shifts didn't align prior to me being told of ix. Info from ED was given to me

PlasticAcrobat · 24/07/2025 14:31

lol at 'exorcised' in the Herald transcript.

nauticant · 24/07/2025 14:31

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:27

People have been asking how to show their support to Sandie and Naomi.

Is there any way we can show our support and gratitude to you @nauticant?

As this goes, for me this is just time-consuming admin. There are loads of people out there who are putting a great deal on the line in this fight. If you want to make a show of thanks, it should go to those people. (This isn't meant to sound arse-y.)

OP posts:
MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 14:32

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:27

People have been asking how to show their support to Sandie and Naomi.

Is there any way we can show our support and gratitude to you @nauticant?

Great idea! Do you have an organisation etc. you would like us to donate to in your name to say thank you for your brilliant thread-wrangling, like we did with Naomi/Sex Matters and Scottish Rheumatology Soc/SP and family?

ItsCoolForCats · 24/07/2025 14:32

I thought it was agreed before the tribunal started in Feb that NC could used the correct sex pronouns for DU because his sex is central to SP's claim. Why is all this coming up now?

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:34

It's so basic that for a woman to name sexual harassment by a man she has to be able to name his sex. And it is also a fact that males who say they are women are in many cases absolutely determined to access areas where women/ girls are undressed, and to remove those women's human rights to consent ie say no to getting undressed in front of them. It is abusive.

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 14:34

Judge asking lots of qq - I'm dying, just dying for him to misgender DrU 😄
though on reflection that would be a Very Bad Thing so I hope he doesn't!

tribunalObserver · 24/07/2025 14:35

[ETA this for @ItsCoolForCats ] Very much looking forward to Michael Foran's take, but I'm guessing:

  • it's coming up again now because BU asked JR to bring it up
  • and she thought it might help lay the grounds for an appeal, if it indicated that the tribunal hadn't been properly run.

I'm delighted by the idea that, in rejecting NC's claim that there had been unfair treatment of the two sides, JR has indicated that she thinks there has been fair treatment of the two sides, and thereby undermined the grounds for appeal! I do hope that's the case.

HereticMyrtleLion · 24/07/2025 14:35

Hoardasurass · 24/07/2025 14:30

Why is jr trying to police NC's speach and relitigate the use of pronouns now. Is this her version of a squirrel

I think a lot of the private hearings have been about pronoun use and I think JR has been instructed by Dr Upton, if not NHS Fife as well, to ask NC to use preferred pronouns.

But, and this is important, JR has not appealed the judge’s ruling allowing NC to use correct sex pronouns, nor has she asked for an order.

This has now spilled out into public, which means NC can now address the issue directly with the witness, which she couldn’t do before.

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 14:36

ItsCoolForCats · 24/07/2025 14:32

I thought it was agreed before the tribunal started in Feb that NC could used the correct sex pronouns for DU because his sex is central to SP's claim. Why is all this coming up now?

Seen in Journalism on Twitter have put this -

https://x.com/JournalismSEEN/status/1948354770600616032

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