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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
myplace · 24/07/2025 14:19

Hi Pete, how do you feel about courgette cake?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 14:19

Lunde · 24/07/2025 14:17

Witness tying herself in knots to explain misgendering DU

How are they not exhausted going along with this shit?

NebulousDog · 24/07/2025 14:20

Yay Pete is back!

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:20

from herald
2:18pm
Ms Cunningham asks about the hypothetical Pete again. He is a biological man and identifies and dresses as such.
If he walks in on Ms Peggie changing, the only logical thing for him to do would be to walk out.
Ms Glancey agrees.
If he does not agree, is Sandie within her rights to be upset by this?
Yes, Ms Glancey said.

Delphigirl · 24/07/2025 14:20

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 14:11

from herald
2:09pm
Ms Russell said it is "unfortunate" that Ms Cunningham has not apologised.
2:10pm
Ms Russell said her concern have been raised "appropriately" in public and private at all times.
She does not believe there has been "asymmetry" and does not believe the judge has treated one side better than the other.

Oh nice, she has now closed this door on herself for appeal 🤣🤣

MyrtleLion · 24/07/2025 14:20

JR effectively opens this to debate in an act of shooting herself in the foot and allowing NC a platform in court on this matter she wouldn't otherwise have had.

Exactly this!

Lunde · 24/07/2025 14:20

Does Pete have celery soup in his thermos though?

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:20

myplace · 24/07/2025 14:19

Hi Pete, how do you feel about courgette cake?

He's a scampi fries and Lambrini man

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
Shortshriftandlethal · 24/07/2025 14:20

Here comes.......Pete!

ickky · 24/07/2025 14:21

Lunde · 24/07/2025 14:20

Does Pete have celery soup in his thermos though?

Obvs

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:21

tribunalObserver · 24/07/2025 14:15

In fairness, I know that when I talk about someone who prefers wrong-sex pronouns, with someone who uses those pronouns, I end up accidentally using them too. So it's just not the case that the misgendering necessarily indicates that the witnesses see BU as male. It's at least partly just that conversations where participants use different pronouns for the same person are tricky. I'm with the witness on this point.

It is rather telling that through all the GC tribunals I've sat through the only people that ever falter on pronouns are those using preferred or gender neutral pronouns, including witnesses, barristers and judges.

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:21

curious: do counsel in an ET each refer to the other as my learned friend?

SpottyBumPony · 24/07/2025 14:22

There's a phrase from the other end of the country that could be used to describe JR's greeting (sp?) ... 'you're being a squinny'!

Shortshriftandlethal · 24/07/2025 14:22

So...they all agree that in principle men should not be in the female CR.......unless they are speshul ones like DU.

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 14:22

Note that Pete does not misbehave, so it's not like saying that DrU did something awful while in the CR.
It is Pete's mere presence in the female CR that is the issue.
Jr tried to make out that NC was comparing DrU to an offensive, aggressive Pete.
Whereas we all know Pete is a lovely chap, wouldn't hurt a fly, rescues kittens from trees, kind to his granny - we just don't want him in our CR.

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 14:23

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:21

It is rather telling that through all the GC tribunals I've sat through the only people that ever falter on pronouns are those using preferred or gender neutral pronouns, including witnesses, barristers and judges.

Because it’s impossible to continue to lie when the truth is staring you in the face.

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:24

Shortshriftandlethal · 24/07/2025 14:22

So...they all agree that in principle men should not be in the female CR.......unless they are speshul ones like DU.

Do we all remember NC's interview where she talked about her chambers colleague mildly taunting her with the idea that her entire legal strategy boils down to "you've got a willy, so you're a man, innit?"

BeLemonNow · 24/07/2025 14:24

Pete does wear big girl pants though just cos he finds the soft material more comfortable 🤫 he's comfortable with his manliness.

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 14:24

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 14:22

Note that Pete does not misbehave, so it's not like saying that DrU did something awful while in the CR.
It is Pete's mere presence in the female CR that is the issue.
Jr tried to make out that NC was comparing DrU to an offensive, aggressive Pete.
Whereas we all know Pete is a lovely chap, wouldn't hurt a fly, rescues kittens from trees, kind to his granny - we just don't want him in our CR.

Maybe we should make Pete the doctor not Pete the plumber. Since doctors can always be trusted. We don't want male doctors in our female changing room.

Oh wait.

Why is a plumber viewed as not honest? Whereas a doctor is?

What's the magical difference?

ThatCyanCat · 24/07/2025 14:25

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 14:23

Because it’s impossible to continue to lie when the truth is staring you in the face.

But that doesn't mean they won't try!

GCITC · 24/07/2025 14:25

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 14:24

Do we all remember NC's interview where she talked about her chambers colleague mildly taunting her with the idea that her entire legal strategy boils down to "you've got a willy, so you're a man, innit?"

It's crazy that a barrister can make a good living on arguing such basic facs.

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 14:25

RedToothBrush · 24/07/2025 14:24

Maybe we should make Pete the doctor not Pete the plumber. Since doctors can always be trusted. We don't want male doctors in our female changing room.

Oh wait.

Why is a plumber viewed as not honest? Whereas a doctor is?

What's the magical difference?

I think he was a junior doctor for one witness

Merrymouse · 24/07/2025 14:25

Delphigirl · 24/07/2025 14:04

In simple terms issues which are determined by the higher courts (in England the High Court and Court of Appeal, across UK including Scotland the Supreme Court amongst others) become binding precedent or authority binding lower courts and tribunals unless they are overturned by a higher court on appeal, or a higher or equivalent court otherwise says that is wrong or decides another case differently on the same point. Higher courts may also make statements about the law in relation to matters which are NOT issues requiring determination in their particular case. Those comments or guidance are known as obiter dicta, things said in passing. They are not binding, ie lower courts don’t have to follow them, but may be persuasive. How persuasive they are depends on things like whether they were fully argued, the seniority of the court saying them, etc. FWC was not a case in which the issue of trans people in changing rooms and single sex spaces needed to be decided, so what the SC said about that is obiter. The ET does not have to follow it, but it is highly persuasive as it was not a comment said in passing, it was a matter which the SC gave considerable thought to and addressed a number of paragraphs to, and the SC is the highest court in the land. Almost everything they say, arguably, is persuasive.

JR is going to say SC in FWS did not determine anything about single sex spaces, NC is going to say ok they did not but they have very clear guidance which is highly persuasive and you ET will have to have very good reasons for not following that guidance.

Hope that explanation helps.

Edited

Thank you, that makes sense.

R is going to say SC in FWS did not determine anything about single sex spaces, NC is going to say ok they did not but they have very clear guidance which is highly persuasive and you ET will have to have very good reasons for not following that guidance.

It feels as though JR isn't going to be the last person to test this argument.

OP posts:
nebulousMoose · 24/07/2025 14:25

SerafinasGoose · 24/07/2025 10:17

I can tell you from my own experience. I don't work in health but in higher education; a large public sector area also captured by GI - probably to the same extent as the NHS.

I complained of sexual harassment when I was stalked, rubbed up against, and harassed by an older male colleague. I documented these occasions, and after a couple of months, when a clear pattern had emerged and I'd convinced myself I wasn't imaginging things, I reported him.

The shit I took. Thankfully my then departmental head was sympathetic and supportive - it only transpired a long time later that they'd known about this man for aeons, his behaviour had been rugswept, and he should never have got near me in the first place.

His union rep tried to excoriate my character. I was a new staff member then - he'd been there decades - and his rep wanted to collect reports from all colleagues on his character and mine. None of them knew me and a lot were keen to exonerate their eccentric, 'fun' colleague.

When I read the witness reports, I was devastated. Two witnesses did support me, the other two not only mentioned not having seen anything amiss (no issue if they hadn't) but they sang his praises from the rooftops with the clear implication that I was lying. Most involved have left now - as to the one colleague who remains, I am only coldly and formally civil.

When I came back from stress-related sick leave (diagnosed cPTSD) I wanted to hide in a corner and not face anyone. I kept my head down for about two years. Meantime, he announces he's leaving (having been told he'd likely be asked to go) and all the emails start to circulate, including from the witnesses who contributed the report, saying what a brilliant colleague he was and how missed he'd be. That broke me.

Final instalment - my employers gagged me from ever speaking of this on pain of disciplinary action. Even the more recent banning of NDAs, had this been in place, would have done nothing to help me in that situation.

I give you the UK public sector.

Edited

Awful, awful, awful.

Women are being made to keep quiet and suffer this abuse, and we so need the culture to change, the cover-ups to cease, people to be honest and support one another.

Thank you for sharing your story. I hope one day that women can take their place in society as fully realised people who don't have to be subservient or beholden to anyone.

Sometimes it seems a long way off.

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