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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Haulage · 17/07/2025 20:05

I’ve just read the AM and PM summaries of Gillian Malone’s evidence from BoswellToday and all through it I was thinking that exactly the same shitshow would very likely have happened in the trust I work in, and I wondered how many other women in the NHS are silently watching this and recognising the whole scenario - evasive and incompetent managers who’ve been promoted far above their intelligence and integrity, in a system where it’s easy to hide the lack of diligence in the constant rounds of meetings, departmental jockeying for position and political wrangling.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 20:05

Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 20:00

Yes that is the most likely reason that Sandie will not settle (supported by her backer)

I think i am correct that in the Labour Employment proposals, NDA’s will be prohibited.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-controversial-ndas-silencing-abuse

Non-disclosure agreements used by employers to silence employees subjected to harassment and abuse to be banned.
Move to protect workers and stop victims from suffering in silence tabled as an amendment to landmark Employment Rights Bill.
Welcomed by campaigners, this change is part of wider measures included in the Bill to back workers as part of the government’s Plan for Change.
Employees who are subject to harassment or discrimination will no longer be silenced by controversial non-disclosure agreements (NDAs), as part of amendments to the Employment Rights Bill.

Changes set to be introduced to the Bill, which is due to return to the Lords next week, will void NDAs used by employers against employees who have been subjected to harassment, including sexual harassment or discrimination in the workplace – no longer forcing them to suffer in silence.

The move will also mean that witnesses to this abhorrent behaviour can call it out and publicly support victims without the threat of being sued.

Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner said:

We have heard the calls from victims of harassment and discrimination to end the misuse of NDAs.

It is time we stamped this practice out – and this government is taking action to make that happen.

The Employment Rights Bill will ban any NDA used for this purpose, so that no one is forced to suffer in silence.

Employment Rights Minister Justin Madders said:

The misuse of NDAs to silence victims or harassment or discrimination is an appalling practice that this government has been determined to end.

These amendments will give millions of workers confidence that inappropriate behaviour in the workplace will be dealt with, not hidden, allowing them to get on with building a prosperous and successful career.

NDAs is a catch-all term to describe any agreement containing confidentiality or non-disparagement clauses or used to describe those clauses themselves. These contracts or clauses restrict what a signatory can say, or who they can tell, about something.

Their original purpose was to protect intellectual property or other commercial or sensitive information, but reports have shown they have become commonly used to prevent people speaking out about horrific experiences in the workplace.

There have been many high-profile cases of NDAs being used to prevent victims from speaking about crimes, often forcing women and vulnerable individuals to feel stuck in unwanted situations, through fear or desperation.

If passed, these rules will mean that any confidentiality clauses in settlement agreements or other agreements that seek to prevent a worker speaking about an allegation of harassment or discrimination will be null and void. This will allow victims to speak freely about their experiences and their employer able to support them publicly.

Ban on controversial NDAs silencing abuse

The Employment Rights Bill will ban employers from using non-disclosure agreements that silence workplace harassment and abuse.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/ban-on-controversial-ndas-silencing-abuse

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 20:07

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 19:21

@Bannedontherun It was Vic Valentine who was being discussed. Vic has provided a witness statement and a supplementary statement. JR and NC had no questions and were happy for the statements to be submitted into evidence.

So it was agreed Vic did not need to turn up at court.

I do have a question for the legal eagles on here - as the disciplinary investigation has concluded would the paperwork be included in the bundle? I know it’s a poisoned challice because the outcome is not ideal for Fife but could they have decided to get it all over and just have one ET.

No, the contents of the bundle are already agreed between the parties. I think NC would have to ask for the court to order them to produce the documents, they didn't know until Sunday what the outcome of the disciplinary process was. And TBH - what do we think those docs would show? Nobody knew anything, kept any notes, and just did what everybody else did. Flogging a dead horse....

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 20:07

HR/legal question - I understand the rules on awards and the relationship to offers to settle (I think!), but if the offer to settle is conditional on an NDA, does that affect the judge's ability to award (i.e. if a judge thinks that no matter how high a figure is offered, the imposition of an NDA is inherently unjust and would invalidate the figure)?

Not sure I've explained that at all well. Apologies - I'm on some drugs that are making me quite woozy!

AtoC · 17/07/2025 20:08

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:36

I thought the restrictions were on live posting during the hearing.

I've just posted at 19:06 on this thread about a person who has done an excellent summary of each morning and afternoon session.

I quoted the entire posts about today's morning and afternoon sessions (I really hope that they don't mind).

I would urge anyone to read that post, I think that they really do sum up what happened in each session.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 17/07/2025 20:10

I just don’t understand how people like IB and GM are keeping their jobs. The whole HR/DEI mismanagement seems to be run by the work experience kids from Year 10.

GailBlancheViola · 17/07/2025 20:10

I am just place marking for tomorrow, hope we have more excellent coverage from the resident Fifer BezMills.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 20:11

AtoC · 17/07/2025 20:08

I've just posted at 19:06 on this thread about a person who has done an excellent summary of each morning and afternoon session.

I quoted the entire posts about today's morning and afternoon sessions (I really hope that they don't mind).

I would urge anyone to read that post, I think that they really do sum up what happened in each session.

Thanks….his summaries were posted on the previous thread also but it’s always useful to have reminders

AtoC · 17/07/2025 20:13

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 20:11

Thanks….his summaries were posted on the previous thread also but it’s always useful to have reminders

Sorry, I haven't read the previous thread and wasn't aware of that.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 17/07/2025 20:14

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:58

A reminder from the last thread in terms of the proof NHS Fife have given to demonstrate they have treated Sandie Peggie fairly/unfairly:

No written policy.
No impact assessment
No risk assessment
No staff consultation process
Staff have lack of knowledge of H&S regulations
Staff have lack of knowledge of the Equality Act even if it's their jurisdiction
Male medical staff claiming they are biologically female
Female staff unable to absolutely say they are female.
Issues between HR, EDI and legal
Signs of clear activism and bias amongst DEI staff giving advice on the subject.
Signs of clear discrimination on the basis of gender critical views - no room to voice concerns - voicing concerns resulted in Sandie's disciplinary
Lack of note taking during the disciplinary process
Cleared of wrong doing in the disciplinary process after 18 months

So far we've got against Peggie:
"She acted unprofessionally" without actual evidence of this.

All need to be sacked for bloody incompetence. No wonder the NHS budget is so large with all these incompetent grifters about.

mrshoho · 17/07/2025 20:14

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:22

Note the politics of Totalitarian this case presents.

Who has the power to absolutely state 'reality' without doubt and without challenge, whilst who couches language in a way that is uncertain and lacking in the reference of their own lived experience?

That a man can state he is biologically female, and women can not be certain of their sex is a dynamic which shows where power comes from and who is in control.

That a woman can not state the truth and all avenues to stating the truth are closed to her by bureaucratic hierarchy and those loyal to the cause, reinforces the structure of power.

The aim of Totalitarianism is not to convince you of an argument. It is to remove your ability to tell the truth and to render you to a state whereby you feel powerless.

The screeching we currently hear with the threats and the lack of coherent counterargument is a feature of the collapse of the totalitarian control of the narrative. We no longer fear speaking out, so they feel they must try and regain control through other methods of control.

This is why there are running themes of coercion and blackmail and guilt that run through trans activism like a stick of rock. The prospect of power and control IS the attraction.

The pattern of replacing competence with loyalty is not a flaw. It is a desired outcome.

The NHS has been ripe for this, with a defensive culture to protect those at the time and to prevent challenges from the public to expose all manner of scandals.

If you understand the dynamics of what has happened at Fife and elsewhere, it makes so much more sense. The idea that we were arguing an equal case where 'proof' was ever relevant or valued is the mistake. It was never about proving that you could change sex. It was always about transactivists had power and control over you. Those who thought they could prove their value through loyalty, are dispensable as individuals. They cease to have value if they are caught out. No one cares to save them as they have become liabilities and threats to the cause and maintaining control.

The 'most vulnerable in society's are anything but.

We are witnessing this in real time.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any.
Hannah Arendt

Evil comes from a failure to think. It defies thought for as soon as thought tries to engage itself with evil and examine the premises and principles from which it originates, it is frustrated because it finds nothing there. That is the banality of evil.
Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil

Totalitarianism in power invariably replaces all first-rate talents, regardless of their sympathies, with those crackpots and fools whose lack of intelligence and creativity is still the best guarantee of their loyalty.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

True goal of totalitarian propaganda is not persuasion, but organization of the polity. ... What convinces masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The outstanding negative quality of the totalitarian elite is that it never stops to think about the world as it really is and never compares the lies with reality.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The greater the bureaucratization of public life, the greater will be the attraction of violence. In a fully developed bureaucracy there is nobody left with whom one could argue, to whom one could present grievances, on whom the pressures of power could be exerted. Bureaucracy is the form of government in which everybody is deprived of political freedom, of the power to act; for the rule by Nobody is not no-rule, and where all are equally powerless we have a tyranny without a tyrant.
Hannah Arendt

The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed.
Hannah Arendt

The effectiveness of this kind of propaganda demonstrates one of the chief characteristics of modern masses. They do not believe in anything visible, in the reality of their own experience; they do not trust their eyes and ears but only their imaginations, which may be caught by anything that is at once universal and consistent in itself. What convinces masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

Politically speaking, tribal nationalism always insists that its own people is surrounded by “a world of enemies,” “one against all,” that a fundamental difference exists between this people and all others. It claims its people to be unique, individual, incompatible with all others, and denies theoretically the very possibility of a common mankind long before it is used to destroy the humanity of man.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

I wonder what Hannah Arrendt would make of this period in time. I wonder too whether she or even George Orwell could ever have envisaged it would be such an ideology as this one who turned/attempted to turn our world order topsy turvy.

Chrysanthemum5 · 17/07/2025 20:14

For this to be settled Upton and NHS Fife would have to agree terms with sandie. Another reason why putting forward a joint defence was bonkers. NHS Fife are tied to Upton and his caprices

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:15

Has anyone (Reddit?) heard anything from/about Upton recently?

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 20:15

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 20:07

HR/legal question - I understand the rules on awards and the relationship to offers to settle (I think!), but if the offer to settle is conditional on an NDA, does that affect the judge's ability to award (i.e. if a judge thinks that no matter how high a figure is offered, the imposition of an NDA is inherently unjust and would invalidate the figure)?

Not sure I've explained that at all well. Apologies - I'm on some drugs that are making me quite woozy!

Edited

If SP was to settle out of court the Judge wouldn't be involved, it would involve Fife saying, "OK we know we are fucked, we'll pay you £X to shut-up, drop the case and shove this back under the carpet"

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 20:16

mrshoho · 17/07/2025 20:14

I wonder what Hannah Arrendt would make of this period in time. I wonder too whether she or even George Orwell could ever have envisaged it would be such an ideology as this one who turned/attempted to turn our world order topsy turvy.

They witnessed it and understood it.

They wrote warning us of the danger of it in the future.

They totally would understand how and why it was happening. That was their gift to us.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 20:16

AtoC · 17/07/2025 20:13

Sorry, I haven't read the previous thread and wasn't aware of that.

No worries, like I said, always useful for people who have busy and not been sitting on their arse all day following this thread.

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 20:20

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 20:15

If SP was to settle out of court the Judge wouldn't be involved, it would involve Fife saying, "OK we know we are fucked, we'll pay you £X to shut-up, drop the case and shove this back under the carpet"

Yes, I get that, but if Fife offered, say, £3m with an NDA and SP turned it down BECAUSE of there being an NDA, would the judge have to take the £3m offer into consideration when thinking about compensation? Or would there need to be an offer not tied to an NDA for the judge to consider?

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 20:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

ILikeDungs · 17/07/2025 20:21

I am well behind but wanted to post this, it was sent to me by a friend and seems oddly fitting for this thread:

A narcissist doesn't just hurt you, they hurt you and tell the world you hurt them. They paint you as hateful, discriminatory, abusive, and a transphobe because if they destroy your reputation first they own the narrative and what you suffer gets buried under their lies.

A smear campaign is their insurance policy. They manipulate the truth while you are fighting to present what really happened, and then sit back and play the victim.

It's never about truth it is about power. Behind closed doors they destroy your reputation while in public they wear the victim/hero mask, And suddenly you are the villain in a script they wrote for you.

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 20:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:22

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:15

Has anyone (Reddit?) heard anything from/about Upton recently?

Went looking myself, found the ghoul Helen Webberley sending him her love 😱
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15cMaKx4mH/

moto748e · 17/07/2025 20:22

I read about Labour wanted to stop these NDAs, and I thought, at least there's one good thing they are doing. If it happens. But too late to apply to anything about this case, I suppose.

ForrinMummy · 17/07/2025 20:22

mrshoho · 17/07/2025 20:14

I wonder what Hannah Arrendt would make of this period in time. I wonder too whether she or even George Orwell could ever have envisaged it would be such an ideology as this one who turned/attempted to turn our world order topsy turvy.

I think to get a flavor of what Hannah Arendt would think we could look (surprisingly) at Jordan Petersen during his Bill C16 period. He is pretty clued up on totalitarianism.

She is much blunter (and smarter) than him, hence why I use flavor.

TriesNotToBeCynical · 17/07/2025 20:23

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 17:21

@prh47bridge I have seen some of these arguments on social media including from those who have studied science. They are invalid for plenty of reasons. Best attempt to set out:

  1. There exist DSDs where someone believes themselves to be female based on i.e. external anatomy at birth (okay)
  2. After testing chromosomes those who appear to be "female" may turn out to be male XY with a DSD (also okay)

Conclusion - Given the above, unless you have had your chromosomes tested you cannot know your biological sex i.e. any woman may be a man. (Invalid from (1) and (2)).

Various issues, probably more than below as this is just from glancing at it and thinking it's batshit.

  • You don't have to rule out every single alternative possibility to "know" something otherwise knowing anything would be impossible. DSDs without signs are extremely rare. Gone through womanly events - you can know you are a woman.
  • Concepts generally have a grey area and it's a grey area whether someone in 2) is not female i.e.There was a seemingly unique case of someone with XY chromosomes who seems female giving birth. They are still arguably a woman in day to day contexts i.e. like which changing room to use.
Edited

Yes this (incredibly rare) situation is one where a simple chromosome test would be positively misleading. But it doesn't change the fact that for 99.9% of us we don't need a chromosome test to tell us what sex we are.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 20:25

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:34

Crucially at this point, they are unable to prove otherwise because of their lack of written policy and ability to demonstrate they have followed due process thanks to a lack of note taking.

They thought they were above it and had the authority to do so without accountability.

Re-reading TT is enraging. How effing dare they maintain that SP's behaviour was unacceptable when everyone involved (bar one HR officer) has gone along with an inept witch hunt. It's not just Upton who needs referral to his regulator. The NMC should be looking into the behaviour of every nursing manager involved.

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