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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

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RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 20:25

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 20:25

Re-reading TT is enraging. How effing dare they maintain that SP's behaviour was unacceptable when everyone involved (bar one HR officer) has gone along with an inept witch hunt. It's not just Upton who needs referral to his regulator. The NMC should be looking into the behaviour of every nursing manager involved.

Agree.

There should be a lot of people done for gross misconduct imho.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:27

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:22

Went looking myself, found the ghoul Helen Webberley sending him her love 😱
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15cMaKx4mH/

Oh my goodness! Webberley praising his 'elegance, bravery and resolution... If you want to reach out, I’m here.'

Anyone else remember George Galloway telling Saddam Hussein 'Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you'!!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 20:27

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:22

Went looking myself, found the ghoul Helen Webberley sending him her love 😱
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15cMaKx4mH/

She is making it all about her, in the way Upton makes everything all about him. With bonus speaking to him/the camera as if speaking to a small child. What a fine pair! 😂

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 17/07/2025 20:27

Why don’t we all contact our local GP surgery and ask for our chromosomes to be tested? This could be really important for our medical care in case we come across a Dr or a nurse who can’t tell the difference between a biological male and biological female.

It certainly seems an essential test for those living in Fife

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 20:27

ILikeDungs · 17/07/2025 20:21

I am well behind but wanted to post this, it was sent to me by a friend and seems oddly fitting for this thread:

A narcissist doesn't just hurt you, they hurt you and tell the world you hurt them. They paint you as hateful, discriminatory, abusive, and a transphobe because if they destroy your reputation first they own the narrative and what you suffer gets buried under their lies.

A smear campaign is their insurance policy. They manipulate the truth while you are fighting to present what really happened, and then sit back and play the victim.

It's never about truth it is about power. Behind closed doors they destroy your reputation while in public they wear the victim/hero mask, And suddenly you are the villain in a script they wrote for you.

This

That's why we must change the narrative, not give a shit and simply say No that doesn't work for us, rather than try appeasement.

ForrinMummy · 17/07/2025 20:32

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:27

Oh my goodness! Webberley praising his 'elegance, bravery and resolution... If you want to reach out, I’m here.'

Anyone else remember George Galloway telling Saddam Hussein 'Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you'!!

Saddam Hussein and George Galloway. There’s a blast from the past! I had forgotten that quote, I bet George Galloway wishes the whole world had!

Jaws2025 · 17/07/2025 20:33

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 20:16

No worries, like I said, always useful for people who have busy and not been sitting on their arse all day following this thread.

Edited

I can't tell if you're being funny or rude!

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 20:35

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 17/07/2025 20:10

I just don’t understand how people like IB and GM are keeping their jobs. The whole HR/DEI mismanagement seems to be run by the work experience kids from Year 10.

I had a look earlier to see if Isla Bumba was on LinkedIn, as I was curious as to her background (from what people have said about her youth, lack of experience, and large salary). I didn't find her, but I did find a couple of posts along these lines....

"Anyone who is following the ongoing Sandie Peggie discrimination case at tribunal - a case which, most recently involved the cross-examination of Isla Bumba, NHS Fife’s equality lead officer - will see just what a financial, legal, and reputational liability EDI work has become."

"Serious people working in the field of EDI do exist. They are rare, but I know a small number. But Isla Bumba is the norm. Most sensible, clear-headed people left the field years ago."

NotAtMyAge · 17/07/2025 20:38

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:47

I'm not sure who is left but the tribunal is supposed to last another 9 days

Surely we're going to hear from Dr Kate Searle? She who fired off a round robin email during the Christmas break to almost 20 A&E consultants about Upton's Christmas Eve allegation against Sandie Peggie... 😡

Justabaker · 17/07/2025 20:40

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 20:20

Yes, I get that, but if Fife offered, say, £3m with an NDA and SP turned it down BECAUSE of there being an NDA, would the judge have to take the £3m offer into consideration when thinking about compensation? Or would there need to be an offer not tied to an NDA for the judge to consider?

only relevant if one party decided to seek costs and even then, if 'without prejudice' would be difficult

Largesso · 17/07/2025 20:40

MumOfYoungTransAdult · 17/07/2025 17:07

Consultants were briefed on SP’s version of events before an investigation had even begun.

Wasn't it DU's vesion of events that they were briefed about?

Yes

LarkLaneAgain · 17/07/2025 20:45

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:22

Went looking myself, found the ghoul Helen Webberley sending him her love 😱
https://www.facebook.com/share/r/15cMaKx4mH/

" Dr. Beth Upton, your elegance, bravery and resolution is an inspiration"

You know what this rhetoric reminds me of?
George Galloway addressing Sadam Hussein back in 1994.

" Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability.”

They must both attend the same Top Ally obsequious speaking for grifters courses.

Edited to add: Blimey I'm not the only one who thinks that! Ha ha!

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 20:46

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 20:25

Re-reading TT is enraging. How effing dare they maintain that SP's behaviour was unacceptable when everyone involved (bar one HR officer) has gone along with an inept witch hunt. It's not just Upton who needs referral to his regulator. The NMC should be looking into the behaviour of every nursing manager involved.

Absolutely. They have basically said that there was no way for her to express her concerns without her being disciplined simply for raising the issue.

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 20:49

Jaws2025 · 17/07/2025 20:33

I can't tell if you're being funny or rude!

I assumed was funny, after all a lot of have been sat on our arses all day ignoring the work we were supposed to be doing.

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2025 20:50

DeanElderberry · 17/07/2025 19:52

If Sandie was to take a settlement it would almost certainly come with a non-disclosure agreement. She is a heroine to keep on keeping on, and it's really important that she has a voice afterwards.

Does the rule on not disclosing what goes on in live sessions only last while the tribunal is sitting (end of next week I think) or until the Judge rules - some time in the Autumn iirc?

Thankfully they couldn’t hide the names of the actors or their actions in this. Which they tried to have hidden.

They couldn’t do it behind closed doors, and hiding away from reporting and open justice. Which they tried to do.

They had to disclose any records of their shenanigans (with the metadata), Which they tried to not disclose. Overplayed their hand on that as the timeline allowed for the SC ruling, and eventual result of investigation into Upton's accusations couldn’t find her guilty. Of course, they made sure not to put many a thing to paper or computer drive. Sly buggers. Deny everything, and admit nothing school.

We get to see the full ideologically driven, unprofessional manner in which they tried to stitch SP up. A type of cronyism, to my mind. Using tax payers money and operating like this in a public organisation.

What kind of weird world does someone work or live in when a woman says that a man is definitely a woman. But she most certainly doesn’t know if she is, because that would require a chromosome test to find out.

Thank goodness they didn’t get to hide it all in the dark, silent shadows they wanted. The important bits they didn’t get to gag.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 17/07/2025 20:50

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 20:16

No worries, like I said, always useful for people who have busy and not been sitting on their arse all day following this thread.

Edited

😂

Me and you both! 😳😂

By the end of it I'll have left a permanent arse mark on my chair and my screen will be worn away by the furious reading and switching between tabs I'll be doing 😂

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:51

LarkLaneAgain · 17/07/2025 20:45

" Dr. Beth Upton, your elegance, bravery and resolution is an inspiration"

You know what this rhetoric reminds me of?
George Galloway addressing Sadam Hussein back in 1994.

" Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability.”

They must both attend the same Top Ally obsequious speaking for grifters courses.

Edited to add: Blimey I'm not the only one who thinks that! Ha ha!

Edited

Jinks 😜

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 20:51

The basic outcome of this tribunal seems unavoidable - the SC has confirmed that the law on single-sex provision has always been that provision for women cannot include males. In, fact I'm not sure why this hasn't come up much in the questioning.

But it seems that the tribunal will have a much greater impact than single-sex provision, as it is exposing levels of incompetence and vindictiveness that should not be present in any organisation, let alone a large public institution.

INeedAPensieve · 17/07/2025 20:57

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 20:35

I had a look earlier to see if Isla Bumba was on LinkedIn, as I was curious as to her background (from what people have said about her youth, lack of experience, and large salary). I didn't find her, but I did find a couple of posts along these lines....

"Anyone who is following the ongoing Sandie Peggie discrimination case at tribunal - a case which, most recently involved the cross-examination of Isla Bumba, NHS Fife’s equality lead officer - will see just what a financial, legal, and reputational liability EDI work has become."

"Serious people working in the field of EDI do exist. They are rare, but I know a small number. But Isla Bumba is the norm. Most sensible, clear-headed people left the field years ago."

Yeah that tracks. My equalities team at my work (public sector in Scotland) are completely bonkers.

Still saying "gender" is the protected characteristic and not sex and also saying that "gender reassignment AND gender identity" is a protected characteristic. Recently also sent everyone new lanyards to wear with our logo intertwined with the progress flag. I refused. There's only a few refusals as far as I can see in the office and we are sticking out. I'm wondering genuinely if it's so we can be weeded out. It's so sinister.

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:57

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 20:51

The basic outcome of this tribunal seems unavoidable - the SC has confirmed that the law on single-sex provision has always been that provision for women cannot include males. In, fact I'm not sure why this hasn't come up much in the questioning.

But it seems that the tribunal will have a much greater impact than single-sex provision, as it is exposing levels of incompetence and vindictiveness that should not be present in any organisation, let alone a large public institution.

Well, we saw from Jane Russell earlier (was it a slip that she let it out early?) that they will argue that the Supreme Court ruling does not apply to anything other than public boards in Scotland, and as JR said, that it was 'not about toilets' (that's a line from Jolyon Maugham's challenge to the EHRC, isn't it?) - so presumably Naomi Cunningham will have to address that in closing arguments. And persuade the judge that the Supreme Court ruling on sex does apply, in general, to the designation toilets and changing rooms etc. Which the SC judgement does say quite specifically - I was surprised to hear Jane Russell trying that line, but I guess that we should never underestimate the power of the different bubbles that we are in. And we shouldn't make assumptions about which bubble the judge is in...

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 20:58

INeedAPensieve · 17/07/2025 20:57

Yeah that tracks. My equalities team at my work (public sector in Scotland) are completely bonkers.

Still saying "gender" is the protected characteristic and not sex and also saying that "gender reassignment AND gender identity" is a protected characteristic. Recently also sent everyone new lanyards to wear with our logo intertwined with the progress flag. I refused. There's only a few refusals as far as I can see in the office and we are sticking out. I'm wondering genuinely if it's so we can be weeded out. It's so sinister.

Well, at least it makes it easy for you to spot your fellow heretics!

CarefulN0w · 17/07/2025 20:58

moto748e · 17/07/2025 17:46

It's pretty bad luck to be born with such a rare condition as Sweyer syndrome, but for those few unfortunates, how it must rub salt in the wound to see people with DSDs being so cynically used to suit TRAs' agenda.

As it happens I have recently had a patient being investigated for a possible DSD. For context, this is only the second time in my career it has occurred, and I’ve a few years on Sandie.

When I consider that individual’s worry and distress and compare it to the fuckers from Fife and their fantasies, I feel sick. These people bastards don’t belong in healthcare.

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 20:59

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 20:25

Agree.

There should be a lot of people done for gross misconduct imho.

I bet that one HR person who actually talked sense is feeling pretty smug round about now.

INeedAPensieve · 17/07/2025 20:59

Thanks again to @nauticant for this thread I need to go and re read it all from the beginning to catch up. My country is bonkers. I'm so disappointed.

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:02

@DuesToTheDirt yes certainly NHS Fife are going to have to sort changing room facilities.

Sandie has been cleared of misconduct by the Board which was no doubt one motivation for bringing the case.

However. Sandie's claims are sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation.

I.e. Was allowing Dr. Upton's presence in the changing room sexual harassment, legally? I guess that's what we will see.

Might sound odd but I am not sure it matters at this point if she wins against all her claims.

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