NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

Despite the fact it has happened, it is also reassuring that we have at least been able to recognise and fight this using our legal system.

This means our legal system has been robust enough to resist a totalitarian take over.

This is not true of everywhere. Other countries have demonstrated they have greater vulnerability and less robustness in their legal systems and cultural resistance to authoritarianism.

Even the Labour Party itself is beginning to recognise the game is up and elements fight back against it.

The NHS will try and resist this for some time because of how those who are loyal have become embedded. That's why DEI will get mothballed, with equality roles instead folded into HR and legal. I don't think they will be ended as such but they will not be given free reign to run amok without accountability and governance anymore. Those who are wedded to the nonsense will be made redundant precisely because of this. They are on borrowed time.

Labour have one shot to do this before Reform grasp the narrative and do it instead of them.

The only witness I'm sure we are seeing tomorrow is Louise Curran. It's still not clear to me who the excused witness was. Some say it was Vic Valentine, others say it was Dr Elspeth Pitt. I didn't catch the name but pretty sure it was a 'Dr' someone. I may be wrong. Tomorrow will tell, or maybe not!

One of yesterday's drive by scoldings that got deleted blamed women for Fife wasting obscene amounts of money on the case because they wouldn't have done it if Sandie had just submitted and undressed with a man, or just allowed Fife to destroy her for refusing.

It's women's fault for being under attack and it's women's fault for not taking it.

How can you prove you've acted fairly and consistently without a paper trail? You can't.

The onus is on the defense to prove they have since it's Sandie Peggie who has brought the case.

The trouble is that too many organisations want to ignore what we believe the natural outcomes of the SC ruling should be. The KC representing Fife and Upton tried to diminish the ruling at the tribunal by referring to it as an abstract case relating to women on public boards and nothing to do with toilets etc.

TRA posters frequently plop in to scold us on our interpretation of the ruling so right now no matter how we feel nothing us actually settled and these cases will need to keep happening.

As I have boringly said many times since 16th April, this war isn’t going to be won due to organisations deciding to stand up for women and children. It will be won when it costs £££££ for organisations and businesses through tribunals like this.

Yes I'd be interested in this too

@ickky Said something interesting about GM shaking her head while affirming something in the last thread - body language totally giving her away

I am thankful for you saying this out loud because i sometimes have had a niggling doubt, about standing firm.

Spot on.

I'm glad you have recognised the dynamics.

We are not 'the baddies'.

We want transparency, fairness, equality and accountability.

This is our driving force, aim and intention.

It is not to persecute or erase anyone.

For those discussing BBC bias, this is rather interesting.

Timeline from SEEN in journalism of the capture of BBC and others

https://seeninjournalism.substack.com/p/not-organic-but-top-down-capture

If Sandie was to take a settlement it would almost certainly come with a non-disclosure agreement. She is a heroine to keep on keeping on, and it's really important that she has a voice afterwards.

Does the rule on not disclosing what goes on in live sessions only last while the tribunal is sitting (end of next week I think) or until the Judge rules - some time in the Autumn iirc?

This was a WTF moment for me. When that happens something has gone really procedualy wrong. HR must have had their heads in their hands.

I get why DR U wanted to do it, ally building is a recognised behaviour during time of conflict.

But.

Sorry for my ignorance but is there a link to complain?

It’s clear case of harassment. Ally building minimises it.

Would it? Is that what usually happens?

Also if Sandie took a settlement we'd all lose the ability to witness the incredibly talented Naomi at work.

Hearing these jumped up individuals squirm has to be worth the money.

A reminder from the last thread in terms of the proof NHS Fife have given to demonstrate they have treated Sandie Peggie fairly/unfairly:

No written policy.
No impact assessment
No risk assessment
No staff consultation process
Staff have lack of knowledge of H&S regulations
Staff have lack of knowledge of the Equality Act even if it's their jurisdiction
Male medical staff claiming they are biologically female
Female staff unable to absolutely say they are female.
Issues between HR, EDI and legal
Signs of clear activism and bias amongst DEI staff giving advice on the subject.
Signs of clear discrimination on the basis of gender critical views - no room to voice concerns - voicing concerns resulted in Sandie's disciplinary
Lack of note taking during the disciplinary process
Cleared of wrong doing in the disciplinary process after 18 months

So far we've got against Peggie:
"She acted unprofessionally" without actual evidence of this.

I think it’s only whilst the hearing is in session rather than for the period of time the tribunal lasts. It’s “live” commenting that isn’t permitted.

And as Sandie Peggie was forbidden from talking about it, she had no way of knowing if other women were uncomfortable, had tried to raise the issue, etc.

She was isolated & set up to be portrayed as the problem.

Yes that is the most likely reason that Sandie will not settle (supported by her backer)

I think i am correct that in the Labour Employment proposals, NDA’s will be prohibited.

It reminds me of that trans-identified man who co-authored his paper with himself using his deadname (I want to say Natascha Kennedy but I might be wrong).

Actually the onus is on SP to prove her case, on the balance of probabilities, i.e. more likely than not, or equivalently "more than 50% likely".

Ah thank you. I was wondering why Sandie would settle in that case. It does seem shifty.