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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:09

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 18:54

Is there nobody within NHS Fife able to take a step back and settle this case? It should not have continued after the SC judgement. It should have never come to this in the first place.

I read yesterday they spent over £220k in legal costs, and that's without an inevitable financial award to SP. How are public funds being spent on a public healthboard fighting a hopeless ET case against their excellent employee, a case in which they are on the wrong side of the law and will never succeed?

Are they are out of their minds? Out of control? How is this appropriate use of public funds? They should be audited, pronto.

Edited

They may have offered to settle but personally I think it is viral that this case continues to a judgement. We need to shine a light on this idiocy and peak as many members of the public as possible

BettyBooper · 17/07/2025 19:11

Catiette · 17/07/2025 18:57

I'm posting from page 1, so know this'll disrupt the discussion - sorry - but needed to get this off my chest ever since seeing that BBC article (pasted again below). It's extraordinary how overt their bias is.

I remember another report on a tribunal (ERCC?) in which they did similar - selected a single quotation from a brief and unconvincing attack on the complainant (convincingly demolished seconds later in any case) from hour upon hour of damning evidence in their favour.

Besides the bias, it also, frankly, misrepresents the entire day's events. Sandie's manner in the changing room hasn't been the focus - it's simply not the accurate, good faith summary they owe their readers. I'd say today was about institutional incompetence, or bias. And given thyt they could communicate the incompetence perfectly well without even getting into the sex/gender debate, how telling it is that they still choose to go with the Peggie-as-villain line.

Last year, I had a small victory with the BBC - emailed them about an article misrepresenting trans-related issues, and received a partial concession in the form of a change to the original. But even the nature of that concession belied their bias.

And I know that sounds vague, but it's deliberately so, because I submit complaints / write emails etc. under my own name, and such is their capture of that it takes some courage to do that, and I take steps to avoid being tracked or targeted in other fora as a result.

How can we have reached this point?

And why? Whywhywhywhywhy do these people indulge such absurd bias when it's becoming increasingly obvious that their approach is decreasing support for the community they profess to protect, and damaging trust in our national institutions (NHS, BBC, government...)?

Sorry again for the interruption. I'll never be able to join in the live discussion on these threads - they just move too quickly for me.

(Also - to save too many more rude interruptions, I'll just put here: thank you to all the tweet-pasters, but especially Bev for the commentary! don't know if I loved the Fife translations or the glimmering anvils more...)

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4g2xz2wwwwo

Edited

Completely agree. It's so biased it's startling.

So ironic that they can't see that they're demonstrating exactly the kind of behaviours that

a)saw Northumbria police demolished in court yesterday and

b) everyone and their dog can easily see is causing untold damage to NHS Fife now.

All they are doing is providing further evidence that will be used against them in a similar manner.

Sooner rather than later I hope.

BettyBooper · 17/07/2025 19:13

And good on you @Catiette for complaining and getting a result! Can't think of many who have got past the 'computer' says no ' part! 🙄😆

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:15

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:09

They may have offered to settle but personally I think it is viral that this case continues to a judgement. We need to shine a light on this idiocy and peak as many members of the public as possible

*vital

ffs…..fatfingerssss

mrshoho · 17/07/2025 19:15

I've not kept up with the threads today but just adding my agreement as to the ridiculous headline by the BBC today.

Also the incredulity of NHS Fife having no consideration towards Sandie's wellbeing. It was only ever Dr U's feelings that mattered.

Harassedevictee · 17/07/2025 19:21

@Bannedontherun It was Vic Valentine who was being discussed. Vic has provided a witness statement and a supplementary statement. JR and NC had no questions and were happy for the statements to be submitted into evidence.

So it was agreed Vic did not need to turn up at court.

I do have a question for the legal eagles on here - as the disciplinary investigation has concluded would the paperwork be included in the bundle? I know it’s a poisoned challice because the outcome is not ideal for Fife but could they have decided to get it all over and just have one ET.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:22

Note the politics of Totalitarian this case presents.

Who has the power to absolutely state 'reality' without doubt and without challenge, whilst who couches language in a way that is uncertain and lacking in the reference of their own lived experience?

That a man can state he is biologically female, and women can not be certain of their sex is a dynamic which shows where power comes from and who is in control.

That a woman can not state the truth and all avenues to stating the truth are closed to her by bureaucratic hierarchy and those loyal to the cause, reinforces the structure of power.

The aim of Totalitarianism is not to convince you of an argument. It is to remove your ability to tell the truth and to render you to a state whereby you feel powerless.

The screeching we currently hear with the threats and the lack of coherent counterargument is a feature of the collapse of the totalitarian control of the narrative. We no longer fear speaking out, so they feel they must try and regain control through other methods of control.

This is why there are running themes of coercion and blackmail and guilt that run through trans activism like a stick of rock. The prospect of power and control IS the attraction.

The pattern of replacing competence with loyalty is not a flaw. It is a desired outcome.

The NHS has been ripe for this, with a defensive culture to protect those at the time and to prevent challenges from the public to expose all manner of scandals.

If you understand the dynamics of what has happened at Fife and elsewhere, it makes so much more sense. The idea that we were arguing an equal case where 'proof' was ever relevant or valued is the mistake. It was never about proving that you could change sex. It was always about transactivists had power and control over you. Those who thought they could prove their value through loyalty, are dispensable as individuals. They cease to have value if they are caught out. No one cares to save them as they have become liabilities and threats to the cause and maintaining control.

The 'most vulnerable in society's are anything but.

We are witnessing this in real time.

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any.
Hannah Arendt

Evil comes from a failure to think. It defies thought for as soon as thought tries to engage itself with evil and examine the premises and principles from which it originates, it is frustrated because it finds nothing there. That is the banality of evil.
Hannah Arendt, Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil

Totalitarianism in power invariably replaces all first-rate talents, regardless of their sympathies, with those crackpots and fools whose lack of intelligence and creativity is still the best guarantee of their loyalty.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

True goal of totalitarian propaganda is not persuasion, but organization of the polity. ... What convinces masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The outstanding negative quality of the totalitarian elite is that it never stops to think about the world as it really is and never compares the lies with reality.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

The greater the bureaucratization of public life, the greater will be the attraction of violence. In a fully developed bureaucracy there is nobody left with whom one could argue, to whom one could present grievances, on whom the pressures of power could be exerted. Bureaucracy is the form of government in which everybody is deprived of political freedom, of the power to act; for the rule by Nobody is not no-rule, and where all are equally powerless we have a tyranny without a tyrant.
Hannah Arendt

The result of a consistent and total substitution of lies for factual truth is not that the lie will now be accepted as truth and truth be defamed as a lie, but that the sense by which we take our bearings in the real world—and the category of truth versus falsehood is among the mental means to this end—is being destroyed.
Hannah Arendt

The effectiveness of this kind of propaganda demonstrates one of the chief characteristics of modern masses. They do not believe in anything visible, in the reality of their own experience; they do not trust their eyes and ears but only their imaginations, which may be caught by anything that is at once universal and consistent in itself. What convinces masses are not facts, and not even invented facts, but only the consistency of the system of which they are presumably part.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

Politically speaking, tribal nationalism always insists that its own people is surrounded by “a world of enemies,” “one against all,” that a fundamental difference exists between this people and all others. It claims its people to be unique, individual, incompatible with all others, and denies theoretically the very possibility of a common mankind long before it is used to destroy the humanity of man.
Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:22

Any observations from people in the room that didn’t come through in TT posts?

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:25

Sandie Peggies treatment from start to finish has been Kafkaesque.

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 19:29

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 19:29

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:22

Any observations from people in the room that didn’t come through in TT posts?

They cannot say.

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 19:29

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 18:57

Do you mean settle? Or concede? To settle, both Fife and DU would have to offer, and SP would have to accept an outcome less than she is claiming.

Which leads me to ask - do we know what the value of the actual claim is?

Edited

The point I'm making is the proceedings shouldn't continue after the SC judgement, NHS Fife should concede - yes - or settle with SP - if all parties agree on this.

There's absolutely no reason for NHS Fife to continue spending money on these proceedings which they will inevitably lose - it is only increasing the legal costs, which are paid for from the public purse.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:31

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:25

Sandie Peggies treatment from start to finish has been Kafkaesque.

There doesn’t appear to have been any attempt to look at both sides. Upton’s PC of GR was used to assign the complaint as a hate incident. There seems to have been no acknowledgment that Sandie also has the PC of sex (which Upton’s also has).

It could give rise to the idea that they started with the conclusion and have attempted to reverse engineer the discipline process to fit.

Haulage · 17/07/2025 19:33

oldwomanwhoruns · 17/07/2025 16:53

So - we're to see a real doctor tomorrow, are we? Will this doctor have any more guts that those two flailing nurses, we wonder? I do so hope that our Naomi will test the depths of her medical knowledge with testing questions such as - How many sexes are there? Can mammals change sex? Is a castrated male a female? ... and so on.

Actually, it's really starting to bug me that most of the actors in this unlikely drama (besides the fragrant Beth) are women. I know that on X people so like to say that it's mainly women who go along with the batshittery of Genderwoo. But I don't like to see this played out for real. Can't some women in Fife (apart from Naomi and Peggie) grow a backbone, please?

It seems to me to be pure social conditioning. They seem to believe they absolutely must appease the men at any cost.

Can’t even hope to catch up at the moment but will do eventually. In the meantime my thanks to everyone for the commentary, links and general excellence Flowers

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:34

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:31

There doesn’t appear to have been any attempt to look at both sides. Upton’s PC of GR was used to assign the complaint as a hate incident. There seems to have been no acknowledgment that Sandie also has the PC of sex (which Upton’s also has).

It could give rise to the idea that they started with the conclusion and have attempted to reverse engineer the discipline process to fit.

Crucially at this point, they are unable to prove otherwise because of their lack of written policy and ability to demonstrate they have followed due process thanks to a lack of note taking.

They thought they were above it and had the authority to do so without accountability.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:36

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 19:29

They cannot say.

I thought the restrictions were on live posting during the hearing.

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 19:36

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:36

I thought the restrictions were on live posting during the hearing.

Correct.

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 19:37

Re the BBC, if their response to complaints re headlines on their website is unsatisfactory, you can refer the matter to Ofcom. Given their headline today is clearly biassed, I would encourage people to do so.

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 19:38

I suppose I take the point that from SP's perspective and all of us, women, this decision will be important so I can see SP and NC wanting to see it through.

However, what an extremely sad state of affairs this is - we already have a judgement of the highest court of the land that makes it very clear all the bonkers policies and conduct of the NHS and many other employers must be unlawful, there just can't be any other outcome here.

It's absolutely crazy SP is in this position.

Taytoface · 17/07/2025 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 19:39

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 19:34

Crucially at this point, they are unable to prove otherwise because of their lack of written policy and ability to demonstrate they have followed due process thanks to a lack of note taking.

They thought they were above it and had the authority to do so without accountability.

Anyone know what the legal standard that is used? I assume it’s balance of probabilities rather than beyond reasonable doubt.

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 19:40

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 19:29

The point I'm making is the proceedings shouldn't continue after the SC judgement, NHS Fife should concede - yes - or settle with SP - if all parties agree on this.

There's absolutely no reason for NHS Fife to continue spending money on these proceedings which they will inevitably lose - it is only increasing the legal costs, which are paid for from the public purse.

Edited

If it costs the public purse up to a half a million quid to get something judicial on paper to say that women are entitled to single sex changing rooms, some people might consider that money well spent. It shouldn't need spending, but if it does, let's get it done. If she quits now then everything spent so far is wasted.

I'd go so far as to say that I hope whoever loses appeals so a precedent is set, too.

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 19:43

MyAmpleSheep · 17/07/2025 19:40

If it costs the public purse up to a half a million quid to get something judicial on paper to say that women are entitled to single sex changing rooms, some people might consider that money well spent. It shouldn't need spending, but if it does, let's get it done. If she quits now then everything spent so far is wasted.

I'd go so far as to say that I hope whoever loses appeals so a precedent is set, too.

Edited

I meant it that NHS Fife should be ashamed THEY are spending OUR money fighting Sandie, and they keep going. Unbelievable.

Charabanc · 17/07/2025 19:45

prh47bridge · 17/07/2025 19:36

Correct.

Oh, I see. Thanks. So you can't report it while it's happening, but you can afterwards?

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 19:46

GrooveArmada · 17/07/2025 19:29

The point I'm making is the proceedings shouldn't continue after the SC judgement, NHS Fife should concede - yes - or settle with SP - if all parties agree on this.

There's absolutely no reason for NHS Fife to continue spending money on these proceedings which they will inevitably lose - it is only increasing the legal costs, which are paid for from the public purse.

Edited

That involves Sandie Peggie shaking hands 🤝 on a settlement.

Do you blame her for wanting all of this to come out?
Up until this week she was under a disciplinary for nothing.
She was effectively bullied by NHS Fife. Nobody seemed to have her back.

The management were all behind Beth / Theo

The person who has backed her probably discouraged her from settling too. They stumped the money up not just to support SP but to set a precedence for females all over the UK. Both in the work place and within Patient care.

Trans 'rights' was always conflicting with women's rights this case has everything in it, an employer so indoctrinated they couldn't figure it out, passing it the buck like a hot potato.

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