NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

I'm quite shocked that the consultants don't have lockers available to them. I'd hate to leave my bag in an office like that.

Louise Curren up next, early lunch back at 1.20

Seems like a bit of a smoking gun.

I know that some witnesses have said that they understand that they have to respect GC beliefs, but that SP's manner was offensive - but this email implies that decisions had been made and actions taken before any investigation of what actually happened.

Agree - I feel so betrayed and upset as a feminist. I supported women’s rights, female equality in positions of leadership, whether in our government, our institutions or the world of business. This microcosm of how women work (falling over themselves to excuse aggressive male behaviour, trampling less privileged women in their wake) is such a let down. We don’t need more women in positions of power- we need more feminists who are savvy to men and the lengths they will go to to oppress.

I learned it at school as "circa".

Google says "The Latin abbreviation "c." or "ca." stands for "circa," which means "around" or "approximately" in English. It is commonly used before a date to indicate that the exact date is not known. For example, "c. 1000 BC" means "around 1000 BC".

However language moves on, and if enough people use it in this new way then that will become its accepted meaning.

@NebulousDog

DU is not a senior doctor or a consultant. DU was a junior Dr who wouldn't have auto access to the consultant facilities so the comparator would have been, "where do other junior doctors change?"

I think the point being made was that there was nobody in the meeting where this was discussed (someone raising a concern about DU in female cr) among senior drs and nurses, that actually used the cr or would be impacted by the decisions made.

EP did not back this up completely apart from confirming drs of her rank probably don't use it. She said she was unaware of whether the senior nurses had sent out comms she wasn't party to.

Yeah, they don't know what height he is, the same way they don't know what sex they are.

2nd half of TT's morning tweets

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1946152365435892157.html

Are hospitals subject to FoI requests where everyone is entitled to see anything written down that refers to them, and to correct errors?

If so, maybe everyone should put one in.

I know that in my public sector day if I was going to be that biased, unprofessional, and dishonest, I'd have been very careful to be it verbally and not leave a trail.

I'd use 're' where they use 'c' for your reasons. But then they are tweeting fast and I appreciate their work so much that I can park my inner pedant.

I'm not sure that's fair, is it - EP was being asked what the consultants do. BU isn't a consultant, and can't do what they do, not having access to the consultants' room mentioned.

JR is returning to the issue of urgency as indicated by DrU vs. EP.
JR - DU says not sure of next steps, what level of urgency did DU have?
EP - possibly discussed changing elsewhere, would still have to use lockers in there, it's poss we discussed that till we knew what to do

Wait - so in between all the sobbing and hugging, EP and the distraught and frightened DrU had a conversation about possible alternatives to the women's CR.. ?

By sending that round they completely fucked the non biased thorough and fair investigation they were supposed to carry out.

From TT

Will use P for both panelists if qu arise.
P - you were asked where you got changed as a consultant. Are there any lockers for consultants?
EP - no
P - where do you keep things?
EP - in the consultant office, swipe access to it, belongings in ther
JR - 3. Discussed time to walk round corridors, what would be max time?
EP - 28 clinical rooms, 3 major clin areas, I can get round quickly.
JR - how long?
EP - about 5 mins, depends how many rooms you go into, who you are speaking to.
JR - asked about what you didn't do re escalation and were asked about experience. Ever come across something like this?
EP - no
JR - similar?
EP - between 2 staff members, never.
JR - you were asked, DU had a diff view of urgency, suggested DU had a more serious/critical level of urgency. Look at para
JR - DU says not sure of next steps, what level of urgency did DU have?
EP - possibly discussed changing elsewhere, would still have to use lockers in there, it's poss we discussed that till we knew what to do.

J - that concludes your evidence, thanks

Fifer : Big Sondie thanks the witless ah mean witness. Osha beastie.

R - next is senior charge nurse Louise Curran.
J - how long will evidence in chief be?
JR - about an hour
J - so we shall break for lunch. Resume 13:15

WIPE DOON THE SEAT
PIECE TIME THEN SEND IN THE NEXT ANE

WHERE'S MA CLICKY PEN, FRANK GET THE DOOR

Didn't CE say in evidence that she had hugged DU? She'd know exactly how much taller than her DU was

I'm 5ft 2in. In my world most people are ether "tall" or "bloomin tall". I have to base height estimates against somebody I know well enough to know their height.

Yep. Very much so in my opinion.

It shows a potential dynamic of intimidation (remember intimidation / harassment are closely connected in law as the same concept - as per previous post).

You have the three going to meet Sandie AND the dynamic of mass emailing the issue to the whole department without regard to who needed to know and who DIDN'T. Again another potential example of intimidation/harassment which starts to build a picture of a pattern of almost wanting to make Peggie 'feel it'.

Combined with the condemnation which effectively instructed all recipents of how they were supposed to view Sandie's actions - they were not supposed to be open minded until the conclusion of the formal process. They were to view her as guilty and to view Upton with sympathy.

Once again, that reminder from the email that it looks like the three women HADN'T YET met Sandie.

I think that if it is established as a point of law that DU had no right to be in the CR then it will magically (legally) become entirely reasonable for SP to have been quite offensive about DU's presence there.

Generally, a mistake of law is no defence. The fact that staff were told (incorrectly) that DU was allowed to use the female changing room doesn't excuse them from siding with the law-breaker instead of the aggressed party (SP) as the law sees it.

I think.

That was the basis on which SP applied for KS to be added as a respondent (as having harassed her by writing that email) and in fact the basis of the entire case that Fife and DU harassed her.

Fifer : noo this section is honestly a bit above ma ken, ken. But I can smell fresh det cord. If ye've worked a quarry job ye'll ken that queer like smell, ken. There's a serious demolition joab being set up somewhere nearby. Mind when they drapped the Thornton Mine Heids? You could hear it fae Fruchie. It's gonnae be lik that.

CE and NC be like:

So... We're on a break! What did you see observers?

I have been listening to all of this and not saying much but that is the shittiest thing imaginable! Someone really needs sacked or preferably (can’t say rest of sentence as it is very very unkind)

Can I ask any of the legal people on here, should we read anything into @Justabaker sharing there was no solicitor or representatives from Fife present yesterday for JR to take instructions?
Have the legal team given up trying to defend this and instructed JR just to try her best to get to the end of the tribunal???
I really can’t make out what their defence is now obviously we all know DU had no right to be in CR and Fife have found no case against Sandie for harassment or prof misconduct!

"She stated she had a right to be in the female changing room"

Is that a typo on the stirrer's part, since she appears to be quoting Sandie's alleged remarks at this point?

"I had a long chat with Beth today, and she knows we all support her"

I bet they "all" fucking didn't.

Who are Esther, Louise and Lauren?

You can't 'arf tell Dr Upton is a bloke. No woman would ever receive this level of pandering, accommodation and hand-holding.

I'm sure I'm not alone in looking forward very muchly to Kate Searle's cross examination 😬

I don't think the legalities of whether Upton should or should not have been in the changing room are even relevant tbh.

It adds another layer in Sandie's favour, but even if Upton DID legally have the right to be there, the handling of the case would STILL be problematic on the basis of that email, and Sandie could win on those grounds alone.

Hospitals do have to respond to FOI requests, but a request for anything that refers to you is actually a GDPR Subject Access Request. They have to respond to those too.