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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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23
DCorMe · 18/07/2025 12:56

crazysnakess · 18/07/2025 12:54

The thing is, though, we don't know just what Upton was like, how emotionally volatile he is, or what it would have taken to get him to leave. I am willing to believe that he really is that difficult. Look at the situation he engineered. This didn't happen just on xmas eve, the incident was weeks in the making, and TBH, you could almost argue inevitable.

He was a large man having a tantrum at work, in an environment where everyone around him has been made to some degree responsible for making sure this doesn't happen. It may well be that Upton needed that level of pandering.

If it wasn’t Sandie on Christmas Eve, it would have been anyone who challenged Upton

Butchyrestingface · 18/07/2025 12:56

HoolitThatFuse · 18/07/2025 12:46

Is DU English? Asking 'cos it's not unusual for English people to hear a working class Scottish accent as aggressive, even when we're being nice.

Edited

It's a good question.

You don't hear of too many Scottish 'Theodores' or even 'Beths'.

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 12:57

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 12:49

Given that crybullies hone their craft from childhood, I wonder did anyone from an earlier hospital placement give Fife a (verbal) heads-up to not do anything to provoke or thwart DU in any way. Over and above their usual gender policy.

I think there's a widespread nervousness about passing on negative feedback, even when it's relevant. I remember a trainee who came to a team I was running for a few months. It became apparent during the first week that he was a nightmare - unscheduled absences, rude to colleagues, not taking instruction, etc. This wasn't apparent from previous appraisals.

As I'd been in the organisation for 15+ years I looked up where his other placements had been and saw that one of them was in a team run by someone I knew well. We met for a coffee and he gave me the full story, which was pretty much exactly the same as my team's experience. We managed him out in the end, but it took a LOT of paperwork and documentation, and would have been a hell of a lot easier if there was an earlier paper trail documenting unsatisfactory performance.

SidewaysOtter · 18/07/2025 12:57

Look at the situation he engineered. This didn't happen just on xmas eve, the incident was weeks in the making, and TBH, you could almost argue inevitable.

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about all his contemporaneous notes. I must admit to not having kept up with the threads during the hiatus, what happened about his phone being examined as evidence?

Rainonwednesday · 18/07/2025 12:59

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 12:31

I am copying this across from X (credit: Mr Malky - who now appears on my feed thanks to algorithms):
Dr Pitt is squirming and sweating (and rubbing her hands between her knees) as she tells the court that a 6ft bloke in his twenties could be intimidated by a 5ft 2 nurse in her fifties

Out damn spot!

Absolutely, I'm SP's height and bluntly, as a woman my height you can be as angry as you like at a 6 foot rugby playing man and they don't give a shit as they know you can't physically do anything about it.

ickky · 18/07/2025 12:59

nauticant · 18/07/2025 12:46

The claimant's witness were in the first part. Now and until the end it's the defence's witnesses.

AKA the good bit

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 12:59

Jaws2025 · 18/07/2025 12:53

Thank you - I do wonder though, the Supreme Court result wasn't known then, you'd think they might want a witness to refer to this (maybe an EHRC one! 😃)
Or another nurse emboldened to speak

There is no need for a witness to refer to the SC judgement. NC and JR can refer to it in their closing submissions.

shewasasaint · 18/07/2025 13:00

HoolitThatFuse · 18/07/2025 12:46

Is DU English? Asking 'cos it's not unusual for English people to hear a working class Scottish accent as aggressive, even when we're being nice.

Edited

I believe his grandfather came to work at St Andrews University and as far as I know the family has lived there since.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 13:00

Absolutely definately must step awa fae ma desk. I've got a wheen o stuff tae deal wi.

Cheerio the noo!

13planets · 18/07/2025 13:01

Words can be violence - just look at that letter KS sent! I would have felt physically unwell if that letter was written about me.

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 13:02

From Boswelltoday on X

Consultant Walks “Sobbing” Upton to Car—But Nurses Were Never Told He’d Be in the Women’s Changing Room On Day 3 of Peggie v NHS Fife & Dr B Upton, the tribunal heard from Dr Elspeth Pitt, a senior consultant who encountered Dr Upton in visible emotional distress on Christmas Eve 2023. What unfolded was a revealing portrait of a system primed to cushion one staff member’s emotional response—so long as that staff member identified as trans. Pitt testified that she found Upton “very shaken,” “pale,” and “sobbing” after a confrontation with nurse Sandy Peggie (SP) in the female changing room. The details were vague—Pitt could not recall the exact words—but Upton felt “cornered” and likened the encounter to hearing something as hurtful as a comparison to a rapist. Pitt moved the conversation to a wellbeing room and let him talk, then advised him to go home and rest. She also walked him to his car, explaining that although any threat was “unlikely,” it felt like the right thing to do. When pressed later about whether this meant she believed Upton was at risk, Pitt said no—it was simply kindness. Still, the decision to chaperone a grown doctor to his vehicle made its own symbolic statement: Upton was treated as someone in need of immediate, personal safeguarding. But when it came to next steps, urgency evaporated. Pitt sent a short “catch up” email to senior colleagues, proposing a meeting “in the next week.” She didn’t check rotas, didn’t consult senior nurses, and didn’t alert anyone to prevent SP and DU from overlapping shifts. Why? “It was late, and I was tired,” she told the tribunal. “I genuinely didn’t know the right thing to do.” What she did know, however, was that Dr Upton’s right to use the women’s changing room had already been affirmed by senior staff months earlier. Consultants had been told in autumn 2023 that DU—biologically male, in his 20s—was entitled to use the female CR. Yet no similar communication was ever issued to nurses, many of whom used the same space. Pitt admitted as much: “I don’t recall,” she said, when asked if anyone told them. The policy was clear, the institution said. But it remained a private understanding among senior medics—leaving women to discover its implications only when emotionally overwhelmed men arrived in their changing room. When barrister Charlotte Elves asked if Searle’s internal message to consultants—expressing support for Upton and condemning SP’s behaviour—was appropriate, Pitt hedged. The email wasn’t “specific,” she conceded, and “could be read” as taking sides. But her broader defence was that senior staff were simply trying to make Upton feel safe. Elves pressed harder. Given Upton’s height (over six feet), age, and physical stature compared to the much smaller SP, was it credible to suggest he’d been under threat? Pitt resisted the framing. Upton hadn’t claimed physical danger, she said—just that he was deeply upset. “It was serious,” Pitt insisted, “but not something to handle on shift.” Serious enough to walk him to his car. Not serious enough to take immediate institutional steps. Pitt also confirmed she’d never experienced a staff conflict like this—yet still defaulted to an ad hoc response, rather than seeking guidance or escalating through HR. Instead, she waited for the “cold light of day,” trusting the system would eventually catch up. It did—partially, and privately. DU’s rota was altered to avoid further overlap with SP, but no explanation was given to the nurses whose space had sparked the entire clash. The priority was clear: cushion DU’s experience, manage the optics, and let others adapt as best they could. What the tribunal heard was not a story of safety protocols or consistent policy. It was a lesson in which emotions get urgency, which bodies get accommodation, and whose discomfort is quietly absorbed without question.

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 13:03

DCorMe · 18/07/2025 12:54

My entire family are fewming about NHS Scotland wasting money over this when many of them are waiting for treatment, long diagnoses pathways and basically getting a shit service

I'm happy for money to go on this trial.

Because ultimately all of this goes back to SNP and the Greens, it's showing up what an arse they have made of Scotland not focusing on the right things. Focusing of flag waving shit that doesn't generate any income for Scotland but "be kind".

Its showing up thank God that the GGR bill was stopped by WM (you know the big bad guys).

The First Minister is still coming out in support of this shit. Its not just one bit of the Public sector it's everywhere. Because ultimately it flows down from the top.

It needs stopped and if Sandie Peggie case is the one to completely turn the wheel then I'll be glad of that.

HannahinHampshire · 18/07/2025 13:04

From today’s Dundee Courier re witnesses -
Vic Valentine, the manager of charity Scottish Trans, is expected to give evidence next week.
The activist is described as being “passionate about building a trans equality movement that is underpinned by feminist principles”.
Jim Borwick, who owns a computer forensics consultancy based in East Lothian, will also be quizzed at the tribunal.
Mr Borwick is an expert at forensically analysing mobile phones and has previously been called to give evidence high-profile murder trials in Scotland.
We previously reported how a bid from Ms Peggie’s legal team to search Dr Upton’s phone had failed.
Dr Kate Searle, Dr Upton’s boss, will be grilled at the tribunal as expected.
Ms Peggie’s lawyers unsuccessfully tried to add Dr Searle as a third respondent to the case alongside NHS Fife and Dr Upton.
Other NHS witnesses still to appear are:

  • Louise Curran, senior charge nurse
  • Maggie Currer, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Peter Donaldson, information security manager
  • Angela Glancey, clinical nurse manager
  • Anne Hamilton, HR adviser
  • Lauren Harris, senior charge nurse
  • Lottie Myles, service manager
  • Lindsey Nicoll, emergency nurse practitioner
  • Elspeth Pitt, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Fiona Wishart, emergency nurse practitioner
NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 13:04

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 12:20

Are hospitals subject to FoI requests where everyone is entitled to see anything written down that refers to them, and to correct errors?

If so, maybe everyone should put one in.

I know that in my public sector day if I was going to be that biased, unprofessional, and dishonest, I'd have been very careful to be it verbally and not leave a trail.

It would be a SAR (Subject Access Request) under data protection laws and restricted to certain types of information about yourself as an individual. It's a bit of a minefield to navigate and worth googling examples before making a request, as institutions can and will be obstructive and drag their feet, if it suits them.

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 13:04

Maya Forstater's tweet with KS's email now has 71k views. 😳

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 13:06

crazysnakess · 18/07/2025 12:54

The thing is, though, we don't know just what Upton was like, how emotionally volatile he is, or what it would have taken to get him to leave. I am willing to believe that he really is that difficult. Look at the situation he engineered. This didn't happen just on xmas eve, the incident was weeks in the making, and TBH, you could almost argue inevitable.

He was a large man having a tantrum at work, in an environment where everyone around him has been made to some degree responsible for making sure this doesn't happen. It may well be that Upton needed that level of pandering.

Engineered is right. He knew Sandie didn't like his behaviour. Let's not forget he stayed up until 3 in the morning on Xmas Eve/Xmas Day putting his argument together and rooting around for "evidence" - which resulted in the patient care accusations (now dismissed).

Hoardasurass · 18/07/2025 13:07

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 09:56

Time to air-fryer a frozen Macaroni Pie

I love these little insights into Fife culture😂 😂😂

Wait till you try and deep fried mars bar with chips🤣

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:07

HannahinHampshire · 18/07/2025 13:04

From today’s Dundee Courier re witnesses -
Vic Valentine, the manager of charity Scottish Trans, is expected to give evidence next week.
The activist is described as being “passionate about building a trans equality movement that is underpinned by feminist principles”.
Jim Borwick, who owns a computer forensics consultancy based in East Lothian, will also be quizzed at the tribunal.
Mr Borwick is an expert at forensically analysing mobile phones and has previously been called to give evidence high-profile murder trials in Scotland.
We previously reported how a bid from Ms Peggie’s legal team to search Dr Upton’s phone had failed.
Dr Kate Searle, Dr Upton’s boss, will be grilled at the tribunal as expected.
Ms Peggie’s lawyers unsuccessfully tried to add Dr Searle as a third respondent to the case alongside NHS Fife and Dr Upton.
Other NHS witnesses still to appear are:

  • Louise Curran, senior charge nurse
  • Maggie Currer, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Peter Donaldson, information security manager
  • Angela Glancey, clinical nurse manager
  • Anne Hamilton, HR adviser
  • Lauren Harris, senior charge nurse
  • Lottie Myles, service manager
  • Lindsey Nicoll, emergency nurse practitioner
  • Elspeth Pitt, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Fiona Wishart, emergency nurse practitioner

If this is accurate and Jim Borwick is being called, it sounds like Upton's phone has been examined. I can't see any other reason for calling an expert in forensic examination of mobile phones.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 18/07/2025 13:08

About that bit where EP said she thought DrU looked "a little pale"

The pictures of him we've seen make me think that him looking a bit peelie wallie (pale) is just normal for him.

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:09

Vic Valentine, the manager of charity Scottish Trans, is expected to give evidence next week.

Can anyone give any insight into how they might think this will help them?

JamieCannister · 18/07/2025 13:11

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 13:07

If this is accurate and Jim Borwick is being called, it sounds like Upton's phone has been examined. I can't see any other reason for calling an expert in forensic examination of mobile phones.

And presumably they found "something"? If there was nothing that was at the very least "interesting" (and potentially, "utterly damning") then there would be no need to say anything other than "we are not calling witnesses re: the contents of the phone because there was nothing that adds to the case".

I wonder if the forensic examination needed to be forensic to find anything? If there is something on their incriminating then I do hope Upton deleted it, ideally just before handing the phone over.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 13:11

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 13:06

Engineered is right. He knew Sandie didn't like his behaviour. Let's not forget he stayed up until 3 in the morning on Xmas Eve/Xmas Day putting his argument together and rooting around for "evidence" - which resulted in the patient care accusations (now dismissed).

This, but also, from the Judge's questions to BU, the judge was questioning the precise timescales of leaving the hospital, making notes on his phone then driving the journey home, - and I wonder if the judge was considering whether at least some of the 3am Christmas letter may have been drafted in advance, since it was put together in such a short space of time by such a sobbing distressed victim.

My god I cannot wait for the forensic phone expert to take the stand!

yourhairiswinterfire · 18/07/2025 13:12

MarieDeGournay · Today 12:29

I said this before about IB's testimony - there is an air of unreality about the whole thing because when EP talks about SP's aggression and mentioning rapists and prisons and all that, and the devastating effect it had on poor DrU, hanging over it all is the fact that NHS Fife admitted that there was no evidence that any of it ever happened.

Am I remembering right that in his evidence, DU said SP didn't actually mention rapists (Isla Bryson), he just assumed she was comparing him to one because she mentioned men in women's prisons?

The other witnesses won't know what he said when giving evidence, so it's a bit 😬hearing them use it as an excuse for their appalling treatment of SP.

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 13:13

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 18/07/2025 13:08

About that bit where EP said she thought DrU looked "a little pale"

The pictures of him we've seen make me think that him looking a bit peelie wallie (pale) is just normal for him.

Maybe just the wrong shade of foundation for his complexion.

katmarie · 18/07/2025 13:13

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 13:09

Vic Valentine, the manager of charity Scottish Trans, is expected to give evidence next week.

Can anyone give any insight into how they might think this will help them?

I believe they agreed to accept VV's testimony as already submitted as a witness statement t the end of yesterday's session, so I'm not sure if he will be appearing or not.

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