NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

WTF!
4 shifts left they couldn't work around them.

Convinces me even more the suspension was about keeping them apart until he left the dept.

I also do that in my normal note scribbling, such as 'things to do today'. I got it from clinical work in hospital - maybe the TT bod has a similar background?

CE is right- it's all 'implausible'. Or in other words, all complete crap.

As someone on x has commented 'It's common for women to accompany men to the car lest the man feels unsafe.'

Re no-one checking on Sandie - what if it had been a physical altercation and she was lying in a pool of blood on the floor? And Upton had lied? There was absolutely no consideration for her well being at all.

For the benefit of the none tweeters

They really were building the pyre, weren't they?

As an aside this really troubles me. “c.” Is an accepted abbreviation for “circa” which is means approximately, so about in the sense of “it’s about 3 o’clock”, not as far as I know, about as in “she wanted to talk about it”.

EP is now using 'they' for DrU, not she.

From TT

CE - don't need to know people around to say something is very urgent?
EP -
CE - accept given timing, might not be seen quickly.
EP - wanted to get it done, do my work and go home, didn't expect it read on Xmas day.
CE - but content to give a week?
CE - See email DU sends KS, less than 3 hours after your conv and agreed next steps
EP - yes
CE - despite agreed approach, DU takes a diff approach to next steps and urgency.
EP - DU states back on 28th Dec, I don't know thier expectation of timing.
CE - short point, not happy...
CE - to park till return
EP - yes, I knew I'd be back, didn't expect anything to happen 25th, thought back in a couple of days. Can I say their expectations were diff to my expectation.
CE - DU is a bio male in his 20's. correct?

Fifer : here we go. The Pronoun Landmines have been airmed and are being deployed in the field. Fiver says EP canny get oot the chair without gettin sent doon the Pronoun Jile.

EP - we were told DU was Dr Beth Upton, TBH
EP - its not something we talk about.
CE - fair DU is over 6 ft?
EP - I don't know everyone is taller than me
CE - SP is small
EP - yes
CE - you knew suggestion of DU being unsafe was implausible
EP - No, not at all, when I met DU clear v upset, frightened, verbal not physical

Fifer : noo look, abdy kens at least one wee guy that would jump up on yer duffel coat and stick he heid in. I'll buy that DU was feart. Disnae seem the braveheart type ken.

CE - not just appearances, but risk needs to be assessed. Serious and urgent to DU, but not assessed like that by you.
EP - serious and needed due consideration, didn't want to do something ill-considered or incorrect. It was serious. Not to be handled on shift

Fifer : did ye see that 'risk needs tae be assessed'. That's a sly dig if ivir ah seen one. We a ken fine well we're aboot 5 risk assessments short ay a picnic already. She's shairp lik a knife this one. Somedy's gonnae need a fuckin big plaster in a minute. They six inch ones ye just cut oot the size ye need, ken?

I wonder how many of those.consultants were eye rolling about how ridiculous his behaviour was

Does it perhaps stand for 'concerning' as in 'concerning this event / conversation / matter)?

in my unofficial shorthand 'c' would be - church built c 1150 - bishop meeting patron to talk about it would be CormacX met DO'B 're' building church.

I wish CE had asked EP did anyone check on SP, to see if she also needed some support.

EP distancing herself from email exchanges
EP - don't sit around reading eamils all day
CE - you say you write emails as if they are going to be read?
EP - yes
CE - a prudent approach, suggest you knew replies to that email weren't appropriate and didn't reply.
EP - can't say, don't use as a conversation.
CE - no more q

That email is appalling.

What's also interesting in that email is that it describes Sandie as saying she wasn't the only female member of staff who didn't like Dr U being in their changing room.

That email is a slam dunk, surely?

BezMills you are a total joy in my firmament. 😍

I know! Imagine receiving that email. I wonder if any of them responded with something sensible, like "please remove me from this email chain".

From TT

CE - serious enough to walk DU to car, but not to ensure no encounter in following week?
EP - I thought DU not back till 28/29th, I would be back, SP on nights, didn't know specifics.
CE - Your view, didn't need total separation, just others around?
EP - wasn't thinking we need
EP - this this and this, just thought prudent that they weren't on together and could figure out how to go forward
CE - confident of it, without knowing SP's shifts.
EP - seemed likely not to encoutner
CE - MISSED
CE - your email is for DU and KS, broad.
EP - my job is clinical
EP - if I was on shift would have seen KS, if DU came in would have seen too. EMails can become a conversation, it's not how I would always use email
CE - back to "catch up" email, thread plays out over several days. You don't engage in that thread further
EP - don't use as conv
EP - prefer to speak to people.
CE - KS email to all ED consultants, seen other replies, you don't reply do you?
EP - entirely possible, don't use email for conversations, always assume my mails will be read, said need to get in touch with KS and ?? might not have been on duty
EP - don't sit around reading eamils all day
CE - you say you write emails as if they are going to be read?
EP - yes
CE - a prudent approach, suggest you knew replies to that email weren't appropriate and didn't reply.
EP - can't say, don't use as a conversation.
CE - no more qu

Fifer : noo this section is honestly a bit above ma ken, ken. But I can smell fresh det cord. If ye've worked a quarry job ye'll ken that queer like smell, ken. There's a serious demolition joab being set up somewhere nearby. Mind when they drapped the Thornton Mine Heids? You could hear it fae Fruchie. It's gonnae be lik that.

I feel sick to the stomach reading that. They should all be ashamed of themselves and what they've done to SP. Absolute no impartiality whatsoever. Just shocking.

Yay one of the Panel members has noticed that Dr U is the only one to seek out the nurses' changing room:
P - you were asked where you got changed as a consultant. Are there any lockers for consultants?
EP - no
P - where do you keep things?
EP - in the consultant office, swipe access to it, belongings in there

They’ve all got to cover their own backs and will sell their souls to not be seen as ‘transphobic’.

There was no process.

The email says "not to share whilst formal processes were ongoing"

And YET it then goes on to say "we condemn the actions of Sandie".

If the process was still ongoing it was completely inappropriate to say this at this point.

It shows that they took Upton's account on face value and made no effort to understand what had happened from a neutral point of view.

There was no reference to Peggie's recollection of events and exploration of whether it was similar and backup Upton's account. Indeed - it actually states that "Esther, Louise and Lauren were going to meet Sandie" suggesting they had not yet even spoken to her.

Why it was necessary for all three to speak to Sandie is questionable too, in my opinion. Three people doing so, could be regarded as intimidating.

Remember: An employer retains duty of care towards BOTH parties to ensure their well being during the process of a disciplinary. This fails to do this.

There's little consideration given to confidentially during this process either. 'Dear All' hardly suggests that personal information is being handled correctly...

CE - fair DU is over 6 ft?
EP - I don't know everyone is taller than me

Didn't CE say in evidence that she had hugged DU? She'd know exactly how much taller than her DU was.