NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

CE was listed right from the start so she was due a run-out.

I feel very confident that CE was a planned substitution. The approach will have been mapped out overnight.

What a wonderful way to learn from the best.

Ah the joys of a well-educated middle class male upbringing. Lots of them don’t hear the word no until they do their UCAS application. Upton has led a gilded life and is totally unaccustomed to being challenged

CE is NC’s junior. She’ll be given some of the witnesses to cross examine, most likely some of the less significant ones, as part of her professional development. NC will be sitting next to her in court,

Have these willing enablers never heard of crybullies, never been warned how common and how disruptive and how destructive they are?

And if not, then wtf not?

🤣🤣🤣🤣

Thanks Bez for the posts - the calm neutrality of the TT tweets contrasted with the running commentary of the Fifer is astounding. I can hear the internal monologue fizzing and crackling with every word. How you find the time to interpolate the commentary in real time is impressive. 👏👏👏

I think it maybe surprises women like us on this thread, because we are women who are prepared to be seen as 'difficult' and to take a stand for what is right and just. Most people aren't like this. Most people just pick up on the direction of the wind and let themselves blow along with that. Most people just want to comply and fit in.

All this case (and all gender bollocks) highlights is that no matter how ridiculous the latest thing is, they will still comply with it. Its not the merit or sense of the thing that causes them to comply, just how much traction the thing has gained in society.

Turns out CE is a chip of the old block, unluckily for them.

Well we do need the next generation ofNCs to have their skills sharpened ❤️

I feel like I'm watching a lioness stalk a baby deer!

On TT obvs! 😆

This morning's testimony seems to boil down to two doctors showing contempt and disregard for a nurse.

Plus ça change...

See the electric shock experiments by Milgram. Goes some way to explaining this behaviour.

From TT:
"JR - please let her answer
EP - we are the seniors and need to support DU to feel safe and respoected. Accept that sentence isn't specific.
CE - it goes far beyond what's needed to support?
EP - Read it as, don't know if helpful but, anyone would condemn a behaviour that..."

So EP thought it was supporting DU to 'feel safe and respected' to allow him to use female-only changing facilities when the consultants already knew that female staff had complained about him being in there? Was it just assumed that all the female staff would just suck it up despite their concerns and unhappiness and not one of them would ever say anything if finding herself in the CR with Upton? It was not 'supporting' Upton to let him use the female CR. Support would have been reassuring him he would be 'safe and respected' in the men's, or offering him separate changing facilities, and not indulging the performance of referring to him as 'she' at work especially in front of patients. I wonder if, since there is much more focus on being seen to support doctors' mental health in the workplace these days, his supervisors might have been worried that he'd have a breakdown or worse if they didn't affirm him and they'd be held liable.

Who knew the wild card would pull off an amazing performance. I wonder who coaches her?

The thing that strikes me from this case, and others before it, is that it always seems to be the first time those involved have been questioned on their beliefs and actions. So yes, I can completely understand that someone who has only ever been pandered to affirmed would find it shocking to be challenged.

In the same way, those peddling this ideology must have their jaws on the floor when someone like Naomi Cunningham pulls apart their belief system.

Another observation: there's an awful lot of "Don't know", "Can't remember" etc. and then suddenly there's a whoosh of confident/off-pat "Well, it's complex because gender is a spectrum and no-one knows what their sex is unless they've had their chromosomes checked to confirm their karyotype". Almost like they've been told what to think/say in these situations somewhere along the line...

I'm waiting waiting waiting for CE to ask 'And SP? did anyone think of her?'

WHY were they told that Upton had the right to use the ladies' changing?? Do they do this for every new female member of staff?? WHY for Upton?? Gerr she needs to ask the question

TBF, (and with no disrespect to CE), the defence haven't exactly made it hard for her!

(That was a grrrr is in a growl, bloody autocorrect)

From TT

CE - you've been told SP attacked DU so badly you think that's prudent. Agree that is exceedingly serious?
EP - it's the kind thing

Fifer : no as daft as ah thocht. She's smelt the rakes an danced aroon.

CE - your concern was safety?
EP - yes, so if they met no need for interaction, right thing to do. Aware DU upset, thought it right thing.
CE - decision on safety concerns knowing SP still in hospital, you need to chaperone. DU sought you out. It's Xmas
CE - sought you as escalation required?
EP - don't know, wanted to talk to someone, supportive culture, have posters saying senior staff support you. If there had been upsetting interaction with patient, would expect to come.
CE - senior and would be expected to do something?
EP - yes
CE - could have escalated to Band 7?
EP - yes
CE - you may not know by LC escalated immediately, but you didn't
EP - yes, it was late at night, I'm tired, genuinely didn't know right thing to do. But as DU had finished, should go home.
CE - could have checked rota? You didn't?
EP - nurse and Dr rotas are separate docs, don't have sight. COuld have, it was late, we were tired thought it right to go home. COuld have gone to senior nurse to check but didn't
CE - fair to say you are senior
EP - yes
CE - judge risk etc regularly
EP - yes
CE - challenging relationship incidents too, patients etc?
EP - clinically yes
CE - here you did decide next steps, your statement to AG says you agree 3 things, rest, on return to work contact line manager, leave together.
EP - yes
CE - IX meeting note, you said genuinely didn't know what to do next, but take it up when return. Essentially not very urgent.
EP - DU and I both back within next couple of days. I was new to org, didn't know all policies, HR etc. It was late, felt appropriate to do on return

I'm just reminded of this

...a kiss is just a kiss??

Oooof.

Given there is known issues between tribalism between the two groups within the NHS its an interesting dynamic to throw in.

The working class woman who is a nurse is at the bottom of this heirachy system.

This means Upton has privilege over her, from his job status.

Yet he makes out to the contrary, that he's the most marginalised and vulnerable.

I'm prepared to believe Upton was shaken, upset and sobbing, to be honest

He was crying because he thinks that is how ladies behave when anything goes wrong. They get all emotional and can't cope, and people need to hand them hankies and be kind to them. That's a lady's life.