NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

Yep, CE right in there with what we've all been shouting at the screen!

Perhaps It’s the man pretending to be a woman that allows everyone to finally unburden themselves of the societal sexism in the way it treats women? It feels like decades of pent-up unfair treatment finally get uncorked for the benefit of this “woman” because now finally it’s not a woman people are being asked to treat sympathetically, it’s a man-woman.

So many layers of sexism going on here it’s incredible.

Straight out of the gate!

I love that Elspeth Pitt is floundering immediately. NC can be vv proud of her protege.

I am so angry. This is woeful.

CE Is it sensible to advertise condemnation on evidence of one person?

From TT

We resume:

CE - Charlotte Elves - acting instead of Naomi Cunningham for SP

Fifer : ah telt ye they'd gie the young team a run oot. Never been rang yit.

CE - some qu on your testimony. Where did you find DU, DU said had to go round whole dept and ask registrar was to find
EP. How long would that take? EP - around whole area? describes doors and corridors
EP - depends how fast you walk, wouldn't take me long.
CE - so longer than 30 secs?
EP - I don't know how long it would take DU

Fifer : she's hasn't seen the loddie's chromosomes, how is she supposed tae ken how fast the loddie can walk? Ah'll tell ye, never met a six footer that walked slow in my hale life. Common sense ken, lang shanks therefore mair groon covert per step. Mah pal fae school big Bathgate, he did the hundred yairds wi thirteen steps. Thirteen, ye believe it?

CE - ref. email 29th Dec, paraphrasing your answer from earlier, you said KS would have had a legitimate info exercise to share in order to support DU
EP - yes
CE - KS says she had a long chat with DU to show support and condemn the actions of Sandie.
EP - my impression was condemning actions, we aren't lawyers trained to write. My reading was KS condemning what was said and how DU felt.
CE - is it necessary to take sides to be a good colleague?
EP - KS was DU supervisor and was trying to be supportive.
CE - am I being fair that reads as taking sides?
EP - to me it read as supporting DU, how others read it...
CE - she is writing as we, not herself.
EP - we supported DU right to use F CR, fades
JR - please let her answer
EP - we are the seniors and need to support DU to feel safe and respoected. Accept that sentence isn't specific.
CE - it goes far beyond what's needed to support?
EP - Read it as, don't know if helpful but, anyone would condemn a behaviour that causes, not condemning the problem.
CE - draw distinction between behaviour and person. Is it sensible to advertise condemnation on evidence of one person?
EP - KS wrote to closed group
CE - how many consultants on group?
EP - 20 about
CE - so email to 20 most senior staff?
EP - yes

Fifer : the stitch up, being un-stitched. Like ma granny takin the sleeves aff an auld jumper. Snip snip, airms off.

CE - note to AG, last para read please. FInishes, concluding no cross over at all. So no cross over?
EP - yes
CE - in context then, no reason to consider changing shifts?
EP - don't know when that was decided
CE - that conv happening 29th Dec.
EP - intention to make sure

CE is on 🔥!

I'm guessing that in an employment tribunal Upton would have to show up for all of it then.

Can we have a Collected Thoughts of Bez at the end of all this?
They pass too quickly in the fast-moving thread, they are wonderful😂

With it being CE rather than NC, does this mean we're not going to get EP asked whether she knows what her own sex is?

Yikes, I'm way behind again!!

I'm reading TT and this thread side by side (when I have a moment). On thing that has struck me this week is that there are a lot more "members of the public" chipping in with their two-penny-worth than I remember from part 1 or any other ET.

Do you think any of these witnesses will go back to read through the trial or is TT far to evil and bigoted for their little Bluesky minds. It's going to be an almighty shock when they find that the charges against Sandie couldn't be substantiated.

I was late back in the door this morning so missed the start, but I see the attempts at arse covering continue apace

Where is NC?

EP - we are the seniors and need to support DU to feel safe and respoected.

but no respect for maintaining a female only space for Sandie and others

Perhaps Bez could write the BBC headlines for the duration.

on a yacht somewhere, with a cigar and brandy at the ready??
Disclaimer: NC may well be a tee-total non-smoker, but the other side don't have a monopoly on making shit up😃

CE - Charlotte Elves - acting instead of Naomi Cunningham for SP

Do we know if this is a planned substitution?

This sums it up. The female doctors get changed elsewhere but Mr Upton wanted to get changed with the nurses!

CE - do you get changed F CR?
EP - no CE - do consultants get changed there?
EP - no EP - there's a toilet by our offices we use.
CE - senior nurses change there? EP - not aware.
CE - fair to say no direct communication to nurses who will be effective?
EP - don't get nurse comms

I gave up on trying to catch up, I'll need to come back later and read the 15-20 pages I've skipped 😅

Tribunal Tweets
@tribunaltweets
·
1m
CE - nobody said the nurses had been spoken to?
EP - don't recall.

CE - on to Xmas Eve incident. It's agreed you would walk DU to car over safety?
EP - yes
CE - you've been told SP attacked DU so badly you think that's prudent. Agree that is exceedingly serious?
Tribunal Tweets
@tribunaltweets
·
8s
EP - it's the kind thing
CE - your concern was safety?
EP - yes, so if they met no need for interaction, right thing to do. Aware DU upset, thought it right thing.
CE - decision on safety concerns knowing SP still in hospital, you need to chaperone. DU sought you out. It's Xmas

So Ep was being KIND was she?

From TT

CE - do you get changed F CR?
EP - no
CE - do consultants get changed there?
EP - no
EP - there's a toilet by our offices we use.
CE - senior nurses change there?
EP - not aware.
CE - fair to say no direct communication to nurses who will be effective?
EP - don't get nurse comms

Undress in front of a man for thee but not for me it seems! 😲

She's her junior. NC is there, keeping an eye on everything. CE doing well!

She watched the Wimbledon ladies final and thought the British public had had enough of one-sided contests for the week so decided to sit this one out.

From TT

CE - info sharing exercise in Aug/Sept 23, senior nurse consultant meeting. Clear to senior nurses and consultants that a man who ID as a woman will be able to use F CR
EP - ref to DU?
CE - it's the advice given at that meeting?
EP - this specific sitn, DU entitled to use F CR
CE - do you get changed F CR?
EP - no CE - do consultants get changed there?
EP - no EP - there's a toilet by our offices we use.
CE - senior nurses change there?
EP - not aware.
CE - fair to say no direct communication to nurses who will be effective?
EP - don't get nurse comms
CE - nobody said the nurses had been spoken to?
EP - don't recall.
CE - on to Xmas Eve incident. It's agreed you would walk DU to car over safety?
EP - yes
CE - you've been told SP attacked DU so badly you think that's prudent. Agree that is exceedingly serious?

Fifer : here is the path doon the gairden, let me lead you by the haun. She's guid. NC is no even needing to raise a finger, she send the big bill and sub oot the work. Easy work if ye ken hoo.