NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

I want NC to give prominence to this question in the next session:

When the entire hospital huddled around Upton to provide support, who was doing similar for SP?

I'm furious beyond the point of reason about this. I think it may be because I did plenty of A&E work in my time, sucked up all sorts of outright verbal and sometimes physical aggression, and was just expected to get on with it. Or, at best, got, "Well, it must have been because of something in your manner."

jR - who was it who told you advice had been sought
EP - I don't remember
JR - are you able to be more specific about what you were told and the advice EP - all I can recall is that we were told that DU could use that CR should she choose to

Damn, EP, there was a bus pulled up at the stop for you and you missed the oppo to throw somebody under it!

I'm so enraged I'm swearing now. The absolute nonsense this consultant is coming out with. No way I'd trust her to consult on my health. Falling for Upton's nonsense. And it is utter cry baby, manipulative nonsense. He was a rugby player! He's 6ft2 or 3! Fuck off with this shite. I'm sick of it.

It's just so male centric. Not one person gave a thought to the women who would be forced to change with a man. At all at any point.

Exactly

What, for the nasty terf? HAHAHAHAHAHA

Once again, it is required that women conform to gender stereotypes and act as support humans to males.

Any woman who steps outside of gender stereotypes and refuses or stands up for herself - like Sandie Peggie - is denounced.

I find the double standards in this approach unbearable.

From TT

EP - we were told that advice had been sought and that she was entitled to use that CR.
JR - who was it who told you advice had been sought
EP - I don't remember
JR - are you able to be more specific about what you were told and the advice
EP - all I can recall is that we were told that DU could use that CR should she choose to
JR - how was the info shared among consultants and charge nurses
EP - it was shared in the meeting
JR - was ED there
EP - she may have been but maybe not
JR - all nurses there?
EP - no just charge nurses
JR - what info was shared
EP - that someone had raised a concern that DU was using CR. No actions, that was all we were told.
JR - I have nothing further.
Court rises.
End of Morning Part 1

Fifer : (Puffs cheeks, raises eyebrows, blows out) Nothing further tae add, yer lairdship.

Esther Davidson, if you are lurking, please consider dressing up in your best power suit, and go queue up early to to get a seat in court where you can look the witnesses squarely in the eye as they plot your demise in public.

Dear god, if there were ever a lesson for women to stick up for themselves and their peers, then this is it. All the consultant doctors are out in force against the nurses and the nurses really need to wake up and be furious.

The little red hen said, “Who will help me plant the wheat?”
“Moooo. Not I,” said the cow.
“Neigh. Not I,” said the horse.
“Meow. Not I,” said the kitty cat.

Lots of cows, horses and cats at Fife NHS but apparently no wee red hens.

But nicely undermines the "nobody complained about DU in the CR" mantra that management have been repeating

Agreed @INeedAPensieve . All NHS staff involved need urgent training in the basic human rights of ACTUAL women to privacy , dignity and privacy. And if they can't recognise reality, they should be sacked for incompetence and misogyny.

Same. Having sat through yesterday and heard what I heard, I can't believe that their main takeaway from the evidence was summed up in that headline. The inherent bias and the manner in which that presents the days evidence suggests either the reporter missed the point entirely or they purposefully chose a headline designed to paint Sandie in the worst light possible.

But we were informed that policy was that she was entitled to use that CR
policy what policy

Yup ! Its all about the trans feelings. Who supported Sandy with her feelings?

I say this as someone who went to Madras school.

The doactur mistbe a poar wee sooul and mibbee gets soaer feelings from patient wiirds too. An oaffice joab or the mortuary might be a better fiit.

They had to give her a wide berth just in case the bigotry was contagious.

Can't keep up today but wanted to say thank you to @BezMills for the excellent translations.

Particular favourites are "fower" which is just how my wee boy says 4 after lots of time at nursery (although his finger would also be "sower") and "ye ken, ken?" - because I used to work with someone who said this a lot!

Yes. A 6-foot broad shouldered hockey player.

I think this is a very good point. I’ve read a lot of personal accounts written by women doctors. They all stress how they had to work easily twice, three times as hard as the men, and show absolutely no weakness whatsoever. They often have to battle against (male) seniors who treat them with contempt. The idea of them 'sobbing' because of a few hurty words is incomprehensible. Let alone the notion of them having to be escorted to their car in case ‘something happened'.

If you had to ask someone “ What ‘Beth’s’ can you recall? “ I expect most people would scratch their heads for a moment, then with a fist pump of triumph say

“Beth in Little Women! You know, the emotionally frail gentle one, who had broken dollies and loved kittens, and caught some grim disease from a dying child before doing a pretty dramatic death scene on her own account. That Beth.”

I wonder if peoples perceptions of the name and their associations with it will change

. “Oh Beth, the emotionally frail 6 foot tall trans identifying rugby playing doctor without a GRC, who burst into uncontrollable sobs when a woman barely five feet tall asked him to leave a changing room because she needed to change her bloody clothes and found his presence intrusive. That Beth.”

I'm.not overly familiar with this but trying to understand.
EP accepted DU words without speaking to anyone else?
She was the senior person on duty but made no effort to speak to SP?
Spent 30 minutes with DU and then went home without speaking to anyone else?

NC is going to tear these testimonies to shreds, isn't she?

So between August and December there was a situation where a concern was raised and the hospital thought this was resolved by merely repeating that the matter was closed and that Upton was entitled to use the facilties. There was no consultation with staff. Remember Isla Bumba was completely unaware of how other staff felt - there was no staff consultation.

All that happened here was a shoving of this under the carpet and no listening to concerns of staff who felt exposed by the prospect of a man using the changing room (Remember there was no risk assessment).

Meanwhile Upton gets escorted to the car because someone else wound the situation up to suggest that he needed this because there is an unnamed, unspeficed threat.

That unconscious bias is pretty huge...

He’s been acting since he started calling himself a woman.