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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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23
BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 10:44

Good grief. Ever heard of resilience Dr Upton?

What a load of bollocks.

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 10:45

From The Herald: Dr Pitt said she can't recall the specifics of what Ms Peggie is alleged to have said but said the "gist" was that Dr Upton should not be in the female changing rooms.
She said she recalls hearing that the situation had something to do with "likening the situation to a convicted rapist".
Dr Pitt said: "I clearly remember just feeling very, very, very said because that must have been so hurtful to hear. I felt very sad when I heard that comment.
"I had to comfort Dr Upton. She was crying so much."
Dr Pitt describes Dr Upton's crying as "sobbing".

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 18/07/2025 10:45

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 10:35

To be accurate I think it was Kate Searle who emailed the consultant group. DU emailed a different group of mostly admin people, including the person supposed to be leading the investigation. If I recall right.

My mistake - I misunderstood where the e-mail had originated.

I'll see if I can take down

Chariothorses · 18/07/2025 10:46

I am finding it very upsetting that this consultant , who has to treat female patients and will know vulnerable and raped women, is lying not only that her male 6ft 2 (or whatever he is) ex rugby playing colleague is a she. But also that after he ignored the basic privacy, human rights, dignity and boundaries of actual women is pretending HE was scared of a slight 5ft 1 who wanted privacy for her period and pointed out blokes shouldn't be in the ladies. It's such cruel DARVO.

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 10:46

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 10:44

Good grief. Ever heard of resilience Dr Upton?

What a load of bollocks.

He was shaken and upset???

spannasaurus · 18/07/2025 10:46

I'm not viewing the tribunal remotely.

Its amazing that for such a bunch of forgetful witnesses the one thing they all remember is that Sandie had supposedly compared Upton to a rapist.

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 18/07/2025 10:46

jawsnsharks · 18/07/2025 10:33

Bum, forgot about that.

Take contemporaneous notes for after the tribunal has finished.

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 10:47

JR - what sort of crying, can you describe

What sort of stupid q is that? For this she went to lawyer school?🙄
The answer was 'I suppose sobbing' which reminds me a lot of
'I call BS'😆

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 10:47

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 10:44

To be clear, the evidence is that immediately after the interaction DU told this witness he couldn’t remember what had been said to him in the CR?

Amazing how his memory improved later then, isn’t it?

I think it’s EP who is saying she cannot remember the details rather than Upton not being able to remember

Signalbox · 18/07/2025 10:47

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 10:45

From The Herald: Dr Pitt said she can't recall the specifics of what Ms Peggie is alleged to have said but said the "gist" was that Dr Upton should not be in the female changing rooms.
She said she recalls hearing that the situation had something to do with "likening the situation to a convicted rapist".
Dr Pitt said: "I clearly remember just feeling very, very, very said because that must have been so hurtful to hear. I felt very sad when I heard that comment.
"I had to comfort Dr Upton. She was crying so much."
Dr Pitt describes Dr Upton's crying as "sobbing".

I think Upton missed his calling. He’d have made a great actor.

NebulousSupportPostcard · 18/07/2025 10:47

This is awful. All Fife have left at this point is to paint Dr U as the fragile victim and Sandie as the unkind agressive meanie.

Elspeth Pitt doesn't seem to have given any thought for how the female nurse might have felt or whether she needed support on the night. Or whether Sandie's Christmas Eve had also been ruined?

If anyone had checked in on Sandie who didn't have the privilege of going straight home, they could have started dealing with it fairly from the outset.

I can't wait for the cross-exam. I was planning to do other things this afternoon but I need to see Smug Elspeth get what's coming to her.

NotMyRealAccount · 18/07/2025 10:47

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 10:45

From The Herald: Dr Pitt said she can't recall the specifics of what Ms Peggie is alleged to have said but said the "gist" was that Dr Upton should not be in the female changing rooms.
She said she recalls hearing that the situation had something to do with "likening the situation to a convicted rapist".
Dr Pitt said: "I clearly remember just feeling very, very, very said because that must have been so hurtful to hear. I felt very sad when I heard that comment.
"I had to comfort Dr Upton. She was crying so much."
Dr Pitt describes Dr Upton's crying as "sobbing".

(Not an observer.) I'm picturing the sobbing Dr Upton doing a quick smirking aside to the viewing public.

crabbyoldbat · 18/07/2025 10:48

the one thing they all remember is that Sandie had supposedly compared Upton to a rapist.

the one thing they all remember is that Upton told them that Sandie had compared Upton to a rapist.

INeedAPensieve · 18/07/2025 10:48

Lougle · 18/07/2025 10:12

I'm a fan of the humble scotch pie with a pile of baked beans. My DF is from Girvan and I do love the food.

That was my dad's go to dinner for us growing up when my mum was working late! I always wanted the beans on the side so the pie top wouldn't get soggy. Happy days!

Back to this tribunal; I am in a rage now at all of these handmaiden female managers. How DARE they do this to Sandie? Fuckers the lot of them.

MyAmpleSheep · 18/07/2025 10:48

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 10:47

I think it’s EP who is saying she cannot remember the details rather than Upton not being able to remember

Thank you

ickky · 18/07/2025 10:48

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 10:47

JR - what sort of crying, can you describe

What sort of stupid q is that? For this she went to lawyer school?🙄
The answer was 'I suppose sobbing' which reminds me a lot of
'I call BS'😆

JR smiling and looking delighted when asking EP what kind of crying was DU doing.

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 10:48

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 18/07/2025 10:46

Take contemporaneous notes for after the tribunal has finished.

Ignore Jimmy and get on with cleaning that antique thingy you said you had to clean😁

Butchyrestingface · 18/07/2025 10:48

chilling19 · 18/07/2025 10:41

I wonder how legions of female nurses/doctors who have been dressed down, condescended to, shouted at and been made to feel crap, and then sucked it up and went home, are viewing this man baby scuttling to mummy to tell on nasty Sandie who quite rightly objected to him being in the female changing room.

Is the doctor/nurse hierarchy still in full flow?

I worked briefly as a ward clerk following university and was a bit taken aback by (and affronted on their behalf) by the form of address between nurses and doctors. Whereby doctors - including those fresh out of uni in their early 20s - were always addressed as 'Dr Smith' etc whereas nurses, who might be 60 year olds with 40 years experience in the trenches, were addressed by their first name by doctors.

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 10:48

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 10:44

Good grief. Ever heard of resilience Dr Upton?

What a load of bollocks.

resilience is what’s expected from other folk (like Sandie) …he’s special and vulnerable

Rightsraptor · 18/07/2025 10:48

@jawsnsharks is cleaning this African artefact your job? Or merely how you distract yourself when being subjected to a load of gender identity bollox?

BezMills · 18/07/2025 10:49

From TT

EP - said was at end of shift, changing to leave, had convo with SP, it had become very unpleasant and painful for her, DU felt as if she had been cornered, expressed that the end of the shift was not a good time to have the convo, that it had escalated and couldn't get away Felt very upset by what had been said to her.
JR - can you recall report of what had been said to her by SP,
EP - can't give you specifics it was some time ago, the gist was that SP felt DU shouldn't be in CR, must have been some comment likening situation to convicted rapist. I can't remember the exact words, but I remember feeling very sad, it must have been so hurtful a thing to hear. I felt very sad when I heard that comment, that was when Dr U was so upset. I had to comfort DU. Was crying so much.
JR - what sort of crying, can you describe
EP - I suppose sobbing

Fifer : look. Ah ken it's no aye easy on yer first job. Some ay the aulders on site might piss in yer lemonade or hide yer piece box, but it's jist somethin ye go through. Then ye dae it to the new apprentices when ye've served yer time an got yer fill tickets. Aye, ah ken it's no exactly like that in a hospital, and ah ken eh's 26 no 16, but ye ken, ken? Ah wis eywis telt tae get ma heid inta that bag aye cement, n harden the fuck up ken?

JR - back to interview on 9 May, response to Q8, I'm going to ask about the understanding you had from Beth about the tone that SP used, Beth said she had experienced a verbal attack, what did you mean by that
EP - what I understood to be the tone, the tone was said in an aggressive and an unkind way.
JR - Did DU refer to anything about demeanour
EP - in the CR
JR - yes
EP - she said she felt cornered
JR - what do you thinks he meant by that
EP - I did not interpret it, it was what DU said.
JR - what did you say
EP - I said I was sorry this upsetting thing had happened to her, she needed to go home to rest, it was end of shift, I may have signposted her to other support, and I said I would be in touch with her supervisor. I wasn't sure about next steps

Fifer Ye'll get worse than cornered in a changing room in the Vic A&E. There was a loddie in there last Monday wi guts hingin oot and a screwdriver half in the dome. Aye e was fine likes, nae vital organs damaged. He'd been up thae caskieberran flats n got a doin for no payin off es tick.

BettyBooper · 18/07/2025 10:49

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 10:46

He was shaken and upset???

EP - I said I was sorry this upsetting thing had happened to her, she needed to go home to rest

Sobbing and cornered and sad and cornered did I mention cornered...

Pass me the sick bucket.

Rightsraptor · 18/07/2025 10:49

I can't believe how much 'specialling' Upton got.

MarieDeGournay · 18/07/2025 10:50

JR has switched to 'Beth'.

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