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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
hholiday · 18/07/2025 10:08

myplace · 18/07/2025 09:57

I’m pleased this case hasn’t needed to delve into Sandie’s previous experiences.

Sometimes it’s implied that it’s understandable for women who have been sexually assaulted to be upset by these situations and therefore implied that women who haven’t been sexually assaulted should suck it up.

Now it’s perhaps relevant that so many women have experienced sexual abuse AND ALSO that so many men will abuse given the opportunity, that we need single sex spaces. But they aren’t only important for women who’ve been abused.

And women shouldn’t even have to talk about their experiences of this, if they don’t wish to. The assumption should be that we require privacy because this does happen and is highly likely to have affected a proportion of women using any service. It shouldn’t require individual women to come forward, as Sandie has. It must be so traumatic - particularly the fact that what she received from the hospital management was not sympathy and support, but aggression.

peakedtraybake · 18/07/2025 10:10

Can someone please help me understand, in simple person words, WHY IS DR UPTON ALLOWED IN THE CHANGING ROOM BUT PETE NOT???? When Pete says he's a GNC woman.

IB wouldn't judge on presentation, but... is overall trust policy (de facto policy, I know there was no written policy) that it's about presentation? Or name? Is it because Pete is a man's name, generally?

(Sorry, will catch up now. I'm trying SO hard to understand the internal logic - I can almost get that if you think GI>sex, that twaw and that sex is very hard to know, then you have to have CR by GI. But then WHY CAN'T BURLY PETE GO IN?

Also where do the people with no GI, like most of us, go? Although I know everyone has a GI in their world, so I can understand that you don't need a CR for non-existent people, so that's ok. But it's just the treatment of poor Pete I cannot fathom.)

I need a sausage roll.

MagicSexEssence · 18/07/2025 10:10

@RedToothBrush I suspect we'll get the same comments re this case as in Allison Bailey's vet case "so the problem wasn't the discrimination but that they didn't follow procedure".

CompleteGinasaur · 18/07/2025 10:11

hholiday · 18/07/2025 10:08

And women shouldn’t even have to talk about their experiences of this, if they don’t wish to. The assumption should be that we require privacy because this does happen and is highly likely to have affected a proportion of women using any service. It shouldn’t require individual women to come forward, as Sandie has. It must be so traumatic - particularly the fact that what she received from the hospital management was not sympathy and support, but aggression.

Absolutely. Yet we're not allowed to ask if someone has a GRC because it's outing and "literal genocide"..

viques · 18/07/2025 10:11

katmarie · 18/07/2025 09:45

@BezMills Your Fife translations are by far the best bit of the coverage so far, sterling work.

I find it astonishing that NHS Fife opted to call Isla Bumba as a witness, but then I suppose if they hadn't the other side may well have done anyway?

I expect they thought, “Here’s a smart young woman, who ,despite having no experience and little in the way of appropriate qualifications, managed to bamboozle her way into getting a £50,000 job with us. Therefore, we can safely assume, she will have the gift of the gab and no smart ass barrister will be able to run rings around her testimony because our wee Isla will have an answer to every single tricky question dancing on the tip of her tongue.”

Lougle · 18/07/2025 10:12

I'm a fan of the humble scotch pie with a pile of baked beans. My DF is from Girvan and I do love the food.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 10:12

MagicSexEssence · 18/07/2025 10:10

@RedToothBrush I suspect we'll get the same comments re this case as in Allison Bailey's vet case "so the problem wasn't the discrimination but that they didn't follow procedure".

I think we may well get both in this case due to issues with clear bias being shown.

There is a HUGE issue here with procedures.

But there's also issues with harassment and those email signatures are a problem.

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 10:15

Has Naomi's friendly Plumber Pete made an appearance at other court cases?

Just being curious 🤔

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 10:15

Mmmnotsure · 18/07/2025 09:59

Macaroni pie. Just googled it as I thought I must be mistaken.
No, not mistaken.

I had no idea.

insert laugh emoji here

OhBuggerandArse · 18/07/2025 10:16

They've switched off the mike now, but until then the level of inane chitchat we were overhearing was something else - if I were depending on Jane Russell to get me out of a tight spot I'd hope that her mind was on something other than makeup shopping just ahead of the beginning of an evidence session.

Lougle · 18/07/2025 10:16

Macaroni pie should be renamed 'Cholesterol on a plate'. It's up there with battered mars bars!

alsoFanOfNaomi · 18/07/2025 10:17

But reheated pasta is supposed to be fantastic, all that resistant starch!

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 10:17

peakedtraybake · 18/07/2025 10:10

Can someone please help me understand, in simple person words, WHY IS DR UPTON ALLOWED IN THE CHANGING ROOM BUT PETE NOT???? When Pete says he's a GNC woman.

IB wouldn't judge on presentation, but... is overall trust policy (de facto policy, I know there was no written policy) that it's about presentation? Or name? Is it because Pete is a man's name, generally?

(Sorry, will catch up now. I'm trying SO hard to understand the internal logic - I can almost get that if you think GI>sex, that twaw and that sex is very hard to know, then you have to have CR by GI. But then WHY CAN'T BURLY PETE GO IN?

Also where do the people with no GI, like most of us, go? Although I know everyone has a GI in their world, so I can understand that you don't need a CR for non-existent people, so that's ok. But it's just the treatment of poor Pete I cannot fathom.)

I need a sausage roll.

I know a transwoman who insists he's a woman.

He goes by the name Jonathan*

(*It's not Jonathan, but it's his male name and it's obviously a male name).

He's fabulous and I do actually like him. I just think he's a bit of a prat and a sexist pig.

He's got a chip on his shoulder about being an effeminate man and being a smaller man. He's mentioned it in conversation a few times now and it's the lightbulb moment for me.

In fairness, he seems to have calmed down a little recently. Strangely enough the last few times I've seen him, he's had a gf in tow... I can't help but feel there's a connection.

TerrierCollector · 18/07/2025 10:17

Lougle · 18/07/2025 10:16

Macaroni pie should be renamed 'Cholesterol on a plate'. It's up there with battered mars bars!

They're the entire reason I was a chubby child!

rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 10:18

alsoFanOfNaomi · 18/07/2025 10:17

But reheated pasta is supposed to be fantastic, all that resistant starch!

Vital part of the Mediterranean diet, surely!

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 10:18

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 10:07

Can we just mention the number of years Isla Bumba has been employed by this trust and for how much to do little more than draw pretty charts, share pencil crayons to draw rainbows, order and hand out the lanyards and tell everyone to be nice to everyone the transwomen.

And that's not just her take home pay - that's also her employer NI and employer pension contributions.

And it's not just her.

Its not even close to a £200,000 waste.

It's millions and millions.

And remarkably, in a direct reversal of usual public spending policy, where one-off capital projects are favoured over employing humans who'll have to be paid for the rest on their lives, they are hiring all these numpties rather than building and equipping clean and safe changing rooms in the numbers needed in this brave new world.

ickky · 18/07/2025 10:18

@OhBuggerandArse I think that is a bit unfair, look at what we have talked about on here while we are waiting.

medianewbie · 18/07/2025 10:19

Lougle · 18/07/2025 10:16

Macaroni pie should be renamed 'Cholesterol on a plate'. It's up there with battered mars bars!

Our local chip shop offers, alongside deep fried pizza & mars bars,
deep fried macaroni pie. I kid you not.

NotMyRealAccount · 18/07/2025 10:19

Pharos · 18/07/2025 09:54

As an exile, I stock up regularly on slicing sausage for the freezer, where do you get your macaroni pies??? They were my breakfast staple at Aberdeen uni, waaay better than rowies.

Available by mail order.
Buffet Macaroni Pies | Brownings the Bakers

Buffet Macaroni Pies | Brownings the Bakers

Brownings the Bakers delicious Macaroni Pie. Exactly like it sounds...a pie shell filled with delicious cheesy macaroni. Buy now.

https://www.browningsbakers.com/product/macaroni-pie/

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 10:19

peakedtraybake · 18/07/2025 10:10

Can someone please help me understand, in simple person words, WHY IS DR UPTON ALLOWED IN THE CHANGING ROOM BUT PETE NOT???? When Pete says he's a GNC woman.

IB wouldn't judge on presentation, but... is overall trust policy (de facto policy, I know there was no written policy) that it's about presentation? Or name? Is it because Pete is a man's name, generally?

(Sorry, will catch up now. I'm trying SO hard to understand the internal logic - I can almost get that if you think GI>sex, that twaw and that sex is very hard to know, then you have to have CR by GI. But then WHY CAN'T BURLY PETE GO IN?

Also where do the people with no GI, like most of us, go? Although I know everyone has a GI in their world, so I can understand that you don't need a CR for non-existent people, so that's ok. But it's just the treatment of poor Pete I cannot fathom.)

I need a sausage roll.

Your mistake is assuming there is a logical reason for this.

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 10:20

Prompted by something I read on X, I have a question - is it usual practice for nurses and doctors to share changing rooms? Don't they have different areas?

It might be usual practice, I'm just wondering.

Should he have used another changing room being a doctor (not just being a man)?

ickky · 18/07/2025 10:21

It's now started, 20 minutes late.

Signalbox · 18/07/2025 10:21

.

viques · 18/07/2025 10:21

peakedtraybake · 18/07/2025 10:10

Can someone please help me understand, in simple person words, WHY IS DR UPTON ALLOWED IN THE CHANGING ROOM BUT PETE NOT???? When Pete says he's a GNC woman.

IB wouldn't judge on presentation, but... is overall trust policy (de facto policy, I know there was no written policy) that it's about presentation? Or name? Is it because Pete is a man's name, generally?

(Sorry, will catch up now. I'm trying SO hard to understand the internal logic - I can almost get that if you think GI>sex, that twaw and that sex is very hard to know, then you have to have CR by GI. But then WHY CAN'T BURLY PETE GO IN?

Also where do the people with no GI, like most of us, go? Although I know everyone has a GI in their world, so I can understand that you don't need a CR for non-existent people, so that's ok. But it's just the treatment of poor Pete I cannot fathom.)

I need a sausage roll.

No sympathy for Pete, he got what was due. Shame the same didn’t happen before. Maybe it’s to do with having confidence, a rainbow lanyard, a nice accent, a set of scrubs not overalls , a stethoscope not a bag of spanners and plungers, a manicure not grubby hands, an inexplicable delusion rather than an understanding of basic genetics…..

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