NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

As an exile, I stock up regularly on slicing sausage for the freezer, where do you get your macaroni pies??? They were my breakfast staple at Aberdeen uni, waaay better than rowies.

SP's team could have called her, but it is more likely they would simply have highlighted Fife's failure to call a witness whose actions had a significant impact on the case and invited the court to draw inferences from that failure.

The Sair Finger

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks :)

Time to air-fryer a frozen Macaroni Pie

I love these little insights into Fife culture😂 😂😂

I think there is scope for a parody of it along the lines of “Ye’ve bin misgendered? Puir wee-man! …” but I’m not sure it would be appropriate.

Stull on yesterday.

Utterly flabbergasted by the 'Did I get this right, do you want any changes?' email from DU to all and sundry about his statement.

That's not how evidence statements work! You say what you know. You ask if they need more detail. You absolutely don't ask whether you've said what they want you say. That would not be evidence, that would be a stitch up.

The public are reasonable but expect fairness, justice and value for money. They hate incompetence - spot on

I think this matters more than other Tribunal cases - many of them don't affect us but most of us rely on the NHS and we know that it's strapped for cash.

I can't be the only one who's thought £200,000 - how many nurses would that employ. How many hip ops could be done for that price?

I’m pleased this case hasn’t needed to delve into Sandie’s previous experiences.

Sometimes it’s implied that it’s understandable for women who have been sexually assaulted to be upset by these situations and therefore implied that women who haven’t been sexually assaulted should suck it up.

Now it’s perhaps relevant that so many women have experienced sexual abuse AND ALSO that so many men will abuse given the opportunity, that we need single sex spaces. But they aren’t only important for women who’ve been abused.

Best pies are Killie Pies by far.

I think if you're going to employ someone as a Jail Cover Dummy (and far be it from me to assume that IB has quite recently had an unsought promotion that includes those duties) then you have to call them as a witness for them to be useful.

Just a hello and thank you to everyone.

Have a day off work today and finally catching up with TT, then the threads.
Have just got to the point yesterday where Pete the Plumber seems to be making a reappearance - feel like I'm at a school reunion or something!

It is horrific read though, all in all. As we all suspected, it looks like there is no way that SP could have voiced her concerns without being seen as a bigot.

Macaroni pie. Just googled it as I thought I must be mistaken.
No, not mistaken.

I had no idea.

We usually get ours from any supermarket we can while visiting (live far far south these days). My wife has been up and down a lot for difficult family stuff, and she keeps us topped up. The latest batch are from Lidls in Kirkie.

I first read that as bum (as in bahoochie) cream. Still apt, I think.

Farmfoods sell packs of macaroni pies, at least they do in Scotland. they used to do lasagna pies too, but I think they stopped them.

right enough!

It's also caught the public's attention in a way that is really pissing off the TRA's. It's in all the newspapers, on the news boards, being talked about in Parliament, all over social media and being talked about in the streets. It'll be difficult to avoid.

People tend to get shitty at risk assessments for everything.

What's striking about this case is the total lack of them.

The thing you get drilled into you with volunteering at scouts is assessing risk / following procedures to not only protect others but also to protect your own arse.

They are a pain in the arse but they focus minds and provide recourse to protection.

None of the individuals involved in this case seem to have any awareness of this and given they work in a hospital where this is the bread and butter of so many things, it is shocking. It's like they haven't learnt basic principles that underpin WHY their daily work tasks include risk assessments / note taking and this is particularly if they are or have ever been clinical staff.

That makes it gross negligence. There is a reasonable expectation that everyone of them should understand they should have this basic understanding of the principle of covering your own arse because it's a basic level of skill and knowledge you need to carry out the roles they are employed to do. It is not outside their ability or training.

The fact they so arrogantly carried on regardless is what's killing them in the courtroom. And why Peggie WILL win.

I too have found the time to complain to the BBC.

#FeelingWomanlyAndVirtuous.

Are you sure about that last confident statement @Cailin66 , they might all be in a state of indecision awaiting the result of their hastily arranged chromosome testing. I think we will have to wait and see if the question is posed, and the response, before we decide .

(No we won’t, we will know , because, heavy sigh, we can tell. Always.)

yass, mon the complaints!

In broad terms, each side gets to decide which witnesses they want to call and the order in which they will call them. However, that is a gross oversimplification. For example, Fife may want to call Joe Bloggs to give evidence, but SP's team may say that they don't need to cross examine him and therefore a witness statement is all that is required, or SP's team may ask the judge to exclude Joe, e.g. because his evidence is irrelevant. If everyone agrees that Joe needs to give evidence, Fife may want to call him as their first witness. However, if Joe's availability doesn't fit with the schedule of the case, they may be forced to call him at a different point. It is even possible that SP's team would have to stop their case part way through to allow Fife to call Joe, although that would only happen if there was no other way to get Joe's evidence.

I'm thinking you are all talking about something like this? No?

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2021/oct/17/the-day-i-cooked-timpano-with-stanley-tucci-jay-rayner

Well I can't be sure which of them don't know if they are a man or woman. And given the highly educated 27 year old married to a man Isla Bumba doesn't know if she's a woman or not we shall have to wait and see when they are questioned by Naoimi C. NC is making a point of asking each of them that question.

Can we just mention the number of years Isla Bumba has been employed by this trust and for how much to do little more than draw pretty charts, share pencil crayons to draw rainbows, order and hand out the lanyards and tell everyone to be nice to everyone the transwomen.

And that's not just her take home pay - that's also her employer NI and employer pension contributions.

And it's not just her.

Its not even close to a £200,000 waste.

It's millions and millions.