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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
CompleteGinasaur · 18/07/2025 09:32

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:30

Fifer : The loddie's spent thirty bing on a deed poll fur es new lassie name, an no even bothert es airse tae spend the extra fiver n get ane ay they loddies-a-lassie-noo forms filt in?

A deh get it.

(edited wan to ane, ffs Bez, head in the game, we're no in Glesca!)

Edited

🎯Even in RP.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 09:33

Given GM testimony yesterday which flung Kate Searle under the bus I bet that she will be off sick unable to give evidence

nauticant · 18/07/2025 09:35

IMPORTANT NOTICE. According to PRESIDENTIAL GUIDANCE ON OPEN JUSTICE IN EMPLOYMENT TRIBUNAL PROCEEDINGS IN SCOTLAND dated 14 July 2025:

... members of the public who are observing a hearing ... remotely, and who wish to use live, text based communications during the hearing, must apply to the Tribunal for permission.

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Presidential-Guidance-Open-Justice-in-Employment-Tribunal-Proceedings-in-Scotland.pdf

The term "live, text based communications" could include Mumsnet Talk and assuming it does then we need to follow the Presidential Guidance.

OP posts:
nauticant · 18/07/2025 09:36

I'll also repeat my request. With each passing day there'll be a temptation for those of us watching the hearing stream to relax into being more free and easy with chatting about it. Bearing in mind the guidance, we should resist this. For those of us watching, it might be best for us to start each day with a reset of what our approach is to be and then over the day that each time we're tempted to post anything here to do a quick mental check of whether the post is actually about the contents of the stream.

OP posts:
rebmacesrevda · 18/07/2025 09:36

Nameychangington · 18/07/2025 07:37

In my Trust the EDI person is trans, the unison rep is trans, the freedom to speak up guardian (the whole point of which is to be neutral) has pronouns in her email signature and the Comms team has an official policy of changing all language to 'neutral' language (e.g. changes pregnant women to pregnant people) in every comms they send out. If you capture those kind of posts, it's a done deal.

Jeez. Freedom to Shut Up Guardian, more like 😬

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:37

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 09:33

Given GM testimony yesterday which flung Kate Searle under the bus I bet that she will be off sick unable to give evidence

Unless she is a true believer and thinks her actions were completely correct.

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 09:38

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 09:27

Re who calls the witnesses, they are all being called by NHS Fife. We had SP's case in the first hearing along with part of Fife's case. We are now getting the rest of Fife's case.

Re the risk assessment, no-one has referred to it being in the bundle. If it existed, Fife should have produced it as it is clearly relevant, and it would be in the bundle. As no-one has referred to it, it clearly has not been produced. Whilst this could be another disclosure failure, my working assumption given the evidence to date is that there was no risk assessment.

Are the parties able to influence the order of witnesses called, or is it just random?

(Although thinking about it, I suppose you should assume that a tribunal judge, as a opposed to a jury on TV, wouldn't be overly influenced by the order of witnesses)

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:38

guinnessguzzler · 18/07/2025 08:37

I've said it before but I'll say it again, this was always going to be their downfall. Their biggest mistake was 'no debate' because it meant the TRAs a) never heard or had the chance to consider the key arguments against them and b) had absolutely no idea of the scale and strength of objection. Completely agree that wider cultural changes fed into this too. We have access to more information than ever but that also means we can, and to an extent have to, filter it, so it is easy to get yourself into an echo chamber. I know some might say that's exactly what these boards are but I think we do our best here to use reason and logic, to ask to understand and to challenge respectfully. There are clear examples of all those things throughout these threads.

Id actually argue the same point and position slightly differently and it's why I've always thought it would fall apart.

Transactivism could only raise as it did at a time which allowed for a mass cult to arise which was populated by a social bubble with had low general knowledge and low awareness of political issues.

It was by design that it could only exist in the safety of no debate. Thats why it was fought so hard to keep it and why MN and then subsequently twitter have been so hated.

There was never a need to construct a coherent argument or defence because the defence was fear and instilling ignorance. Indeed it was actively better than it didn't.

The assumption has been from the GC side that this was an equally sided argument where rational was valued on both sides. That never was the case.

This has been another example of political opposites being divided by an emotional side on one side and a rational side on the other as driving forces. (The two other movements that you will be most familiar with are Trump v Democrats and Brexit in the UK). That's not to say there aren't emotional players on the GC side and rational players on the GI side - it saying the driving force has been that GC favour rational arguments whereas the GI said aren't interested in that and throw out appeals to emotion.

The problem with appeals to emotion in politics is they always evaporate on contact with reality. They are time limited in how long such movement can last. They collapse eventually under the weight of their own bullshit.

The TRAs only ever had disinformation, fear and hyperbole. Many GC assumed they had an argument. They don't now and they never have.

Once the facade started to crack and Forstater won, the fear disappeared and they lost control of the narrative.

Every step we take forward we realise that fear and abuse of power has existed to keep control. They can't follow due practice and demonstrate due diligence and maintenance women's rights as well as pushing this shite. It's impossible.

That's why they turned to capture.

And there will be a reckoning on it for all those people in those jobs as it becomes clear just how much grifting has been going on.

The public are reasonable but expect fairness, justice and value for money. They hate incompetence.

The game is up and those caught up in it are starting to panic because they know the jij is up.

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 09:41

Lougle · 18/07/2025 09:29

I think this unofficial application of 'How I think things should be' is rife in the NHS. I was a nurse and needed to take time off over a period that included a couple of weeks where I already had annual leave booked. When I returned and asked about the leave, my manager said "oh I think that's just gone." It was only when I told her that I was pretty sure that I should be able to take it at another time and would contact HR, that she contacted HR who rightly said 'of course she gets the leave at another time.'

If they can get away with it, they will. Teamwork in the NHS is only a thing if you're doing what other people want you to do. That was SP's mistake. She thought the law mattered.

Managers not understanding the law is by no means unique to the NHS. I remember one large business I worked with discovering that one of their managers had refused to allow an employee to take time off when they had been summoned to court to give evidence. Fortunately for the organisation, they found out before the case took place.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:41

I'm standing by to C+P from TT. I'll start each post with "From TT" to indicate the source.

I am not observing live in person or via the online access, just on the plain tinternet like most of you all.

I'll post TT content verbatim and try and indicate clearly if something is my content or comments.

I plan to follow TT using this link (nitter, which is itself a mirror of twitter, mirror)

https://lightbrd.com/tribunaltweets

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:42

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 09:33

Given GM testimony yesterday which flung Kate Searle under the bus I bet that she will be off sick unable to give evidence

Wouldnt they just reschedule court dates if she managed to get a reputable sick note?

Id imagine no one would like another delay to the outcome of this. Least of all NHS Fife and it's staff.

As I say 'time to put them out of their misery'.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:43

9:43 - time to Court - at least 17 minutes.

Time to air-fryer a frozen Macaroni Pie : 12 minutes.

You can see where this is going.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:43

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:41

I'm standing by to C+P from TT. I'll start each post with "From TT" to indicate the source.

I am not observing live in person or via the online access, just on the plain tinternet like most of you all.

I'll post TT content verbatim and try and indicate clearly if something is my content or comments.

I plan to follow TT using this link (nitter, which is itself a mirror of twitter, mirror)

https://lightbrd.com/tribunaltweets

I'm just getting everything third hand off you!

At least that's more accurate and representative than the bloody BBC summary.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:44

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:43

9:43 - time to Court - at least 17 minutes.

Time to air-fryer a frozen Macaroni Pie : 12 minutes.

You can see where this is going.

You've got a good half hour.

katmarie · 18/07/2025 09:45

@BezMills Your Fife translations are by far the best bit of the coverage so far, sterling work.

I find it astonishing that NHS Fife opted to call Isla Bumba as a witness, but then I suppose if they hadn't the other side may well have done anyway?

Mmmnotsure · 18/07/2025 09:48

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 09:44

You've got a good half hour.

That dang missing laughter emoji again

Justabaker · 18/07/2025 09:49

Waiting to go in - can I just thanks to @nauticant for this series of threads. When I'm reporting, it's all facts based - what I hear and see. And I accumulate 'reactions' for hours. Great to know that others feel the same and to have some place to share them.

IslandsAround · 18/07/2025 09:49

Finally caught up.

It ever more clear reading the TT updates and all the helpful comments esp from those referring back to the February evidence that only the HR bods had a faint idea of the law that applies or basic fairness. When the captured minds didn’t like the HR advice they just did what they fancied.

So each person sitting in those seats exposing their prejudices and failures - they ignored colleagues who gave them the correct advice. Bumba wasn’t advising the law. They went to her as it reinforced their narrative.

So in an ideal world the HR team could now start going through misconduct proceedings with them all and heads start rolling - but it’s clear the board have no appetite for compliance with the law. Would be hard to work there.

Fair play to the HR team!

ickky · 18/07/2025 09:49

Morning all. 👋

What batshittery are we expecting today?

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 09:50

The public are reasonable but expect fairness, justice and value for money. They hate incompetence - spot on @RedToothBrush

Hopefully that is what the media (apart from the BBC and Guardian etc) are picking up. This case has also shown that we, the taxpayer, are paying for an over bloated incompetent and inept NHS. By that I am not criticising the medical care but all the time and money wasted in ‘support areas’ eg HR, staff welfare,EDI. So many people involved but no record keeping, no policies, no risk assessments, no awareness of the law, basic decency in their approach to staff not just the posh middle class ones. But that’s no problem in the minds of the NHS as we have colourful lanyards, posters and banners

Lougle · 18/07/2025 09:51

Technical question: I find Twitter really hard to use. Is the purpose of a Twitter mirror just to avoid giving Twitter clicks?

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:53

Lougle · 18/07/2025 09:51

Technical question: I find Twitter really hard to use. Is the purpose of a Twitter mirror just to avoid giving Twitter clicks?

for me nitter is better.

If you click on a post on twitter when not logged in, you don't get the full service (just a nag box to log in).

Even when compared to logged in twitter, for some reason I found nitter better!

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 09:53

AlexandraLeaving · 18/07/2025 08:59

I want to celebrate a brief moment of being up to date with the threads. It won’t last. Thank you to everyone for the commentary, and to @Justabaker for TT and esp to @BezMills for the translations. You’ve made me homesick. Both those poems we had to learn at school and I can still recite them when required (and Schule In June, and The Sair Finger, and The Crocodile and…).

The Sair Finger - the poem of every Scots schoolchild who learned it for the yearly Burns/Scots recitation competitions.

(Edited - the formatting is buggered, will add as image instead)

alsoFanOfNaomi · 18/07/2025 09:53

Wasn't establishing sexual harassment the whole point of NC's Peter story and mic drop yesterday? I think so.

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:54

Lougle · 18/07/2025 09:51

Technical question: I find Twitter really hard to use. Is the purpose of a Twitter mirror just to avoid giving Twitter clicks?

I've subscribed for one pound to the Herald and they are giving constant updates of what's going on in the tribunal. I find Twitter very difficult to follow.

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