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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:12

Somebody posted it downthread and I can't find it now, what are the actual charges that SP is bringing against Fife and Dr U?

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:12

AlexandraLeaving · 18/07/2025 08:59

I want to celebrate a brief moment of being up to date with the threads. It won’t last. Thank you to everyone for the commentary, and to @Justabaker for TT and esp to @BezMills for the translations. You’ve made me homesick. Both those poems we had to learn at school and I can still recite them when required (and Schule In June, and The Sair Finger, and The Crocodile and…).

The Puddock seems to be a poem for all the ages. You'd lose count of the politicians that it could suit, and I think there's a couple of names in this tribunal that I'd put on the list too. It would be unkind of me to name names.

My keybard is nt wrkin. Strange - I've had nae bother with the O up to now.

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 18/07/2025 09:13

KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 07:27

Thank you so much for everything! Brilliant work.

Schrodingers Risk Assessment 🤣🤣🤣

I think they need to solve Schroedinger's equation for an infinite potential well (the simplest possible solution of the equation), as that's where they seem to have put themselves (right at the bottom of it).

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:14

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:12

Somebody posted it downthread and I can't find it now, what are the actual charges that SP is bringing against Fife and Dr U?

Ms Peggie is claiming discrimination, harassment and victimisation under the Equality Act

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 09:14

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:09

Witnesses still to come in this circus

  • Louise Curran, senior charge nurse
  • Maggie Currer, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Peter Donaldson, information security manager
  • Angela Glancey, clinical nurse manager
  • Anne Hamilton, HR adviser
  • Lauren Harris, senior charge nurse
  • Lottie Myles, service manager
  • Lindsey Nicoll, emergency nurse practitioner
  • Elspeth Pitt, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Fiona Wishart, emergency nurse practitioner

And Kate Searle - Upton's line manager

All women except for Peter.

Edited

I have got this far without really understanding the rules for calling witnesses.

Will these be witnesses for both sides? Wasn't there some discussion about Kate Searle giving evidence?

ETA: oops, missed Kate Searle at the bottom.

But am still interested to know who calls the witnesses.

CassOle · 18/07/2025 09:15

GrandmaMazur · 18/07/2025 08:52

Theres a great article by Stephen Daisley in the Spectator today:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-to-overthrow-the-lanyardocracy/

includes this scathing overview of the ET:

‘Every time a health board witness gives evidence in the proceedings, it becomes less of a mystery why NHS Fife wanted the tribunal to sit in secret. It has revealed itself to be an inept organisation, led by a hapless hierarchy, implementing guidelines that are in a very distant relationship with equalities law. If the health board had simply shredded the Equality Act and glued the pieces back together at random, it would have made for a more coherent policy than the one put in place.’

Thanks for posting that.

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 09:17

Kate Searle isn't on that list, but wasn't she due to be the next witness cross examined before the Tribunal was paused?
We really need to know what her email said - this seems to be a key piece of evidence.

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:18

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:14

Ms Peggie is claiming discrimination, harassment and victimisation under the Equality Act

I don't understand her Sexual Harrassment claim. Maybe she will lose that one?

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:19

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 09:14

I have got this far without really understanding the rules for calling witnesses.

Will these be witnesses for both sides? Wasn't there some discussion about Kate Searle giving evidence?

ETA: oops, missed Kate Searle at the bottom.

But am still interested to know who calls the witnesses.

Edited

So far it seems to me that each witness gets a soft questioning from Jane Russell the barrister for Fife NHS/Upton, following by forensic and cutting questioning from the excellent Naomi Cunningham barrister for Sandie Peggie.

myplace · 18/07/2025 09:19

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:18

I don't understand her Sexual Harrassment claim. Maybe she will lose that one?

Which bit of a man insisting she undress in front of him, and that she stay while he undresses, is not sexual harassment?

Largesso · 18/07/2025 09:20

I now am of the firm belief that DU pressured (bullied) Jamie Doyle into suspending SP and that is why they haven't called JD as a witness. It is the only reasonable inference.

That pressure from DU was huge given the context of NHS Fife being fully stonewalled at the time. Being fully stonewalled had imbued all the management staff with fear and so the initial motivation to be kind has by that point transformed into dystopian authoritarianism that is both Kafkaesque and Lord of the Flies-esque.

Women in senior management roles feel very vulnerable in those roles, still, and that vulnerability makes them wholly foolish at times.

When faced with two men: DU and JD, and the climate of fear the only available option to the weak-willed was full compliance with the ideology. The idea that the presumption of bigotry can overset all else, including due process doesn't come from nowhere, however.

This is an environment, in my view, where nurses of long standing who might be brave enough to take issue with management decisions are easily got rid of. Early retirement, pay offs, etc. There is also the classic sidelining. Not getting preferred shifts, being put on duties that are below your skills and levels -- all very good and practiced means of getting rid of dissenters without having to undertake full process. Ie it was habitual to pay women off or sideline them and never be further questioned.

In that environment DU insists to JD that SP must be suspended. He will not be satisfied with the usual slow sidelining or opportunity given for SP to jump ship. He wants visible detriment as his reward. JD is programmed to defer to Doctors within workplace political structures and is also enjoying his own level of authoritarian control over the nurses he manages. Perfect storm. Two men enjoying their borrowed power and authority ie they don't merit respect because of who they are but because of their positions and they desire some augmentation.

JD oversees ED and pushes for it. ED, new to the position, is being told by her own manager (of this process) to do suspension immediately. There is no time for a RA and is not being instructed to undertake a RA because unless DU gets what he wants immediately he will get Stonewall onboard.

There is, then, a pretence at I/X just to tick the box.

Pre-action letter comes in from SP and the shit hit the fan. HR want to see the proper documentation that resulted in suspension. There is none.

Collusion begins.

AG is appointed new i/x and knows that something more serious must be produced or they are up shit creek without a paddle so massages DU into presenting patient care concerns which had not been documented or noted in any way before June, nearly 6 months after the suspension.

If there had been a risk to patients because SP was viewed as transphobic there was no evidence to support such a fear -- no RA or questioning of SP with regard to how she would treat Trans patients. No research undertaken into whether she has treated Trans patients before. There are certainly no complaints against her.

Even though they still strongly believe that SP was in the wrong for questioning their authority (and that's what it ultimately boils down to) they also know they have to qualify that into something legal.

In fact, they are the bigots and every action and misstep declares their bigotry.

NC is laying bare that bigotry step by step.

Chersfrozenface · 18/07/2025 09:20

Re The Puddock

I didn't know of the word 'puddock' until I read M R James' ghost story 'Martin's Close', where it's described as a West Country term.

I shall go and look it up in the online version of Wright's English Dialect Dictionary.

Greyskybluesky · 18/07/2025 09:23

"If the health board had simply shredded the Equality Act and glued the pieces back together at random, it would have made for a more coherent policy than the one put in place"

That is brilliant @GrandmaMazur

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:23

myplace · 18/07/2025 09:19

Which bit of a man insisting she undress in front of him, and that she stay while he undresses, is not sexual harassment?

Well yes, but that aspect doesn't seem to be coming up much. I guess we've got a few more days of this to go though, and the closing arguments (if that is the right term).

Datun · 18/07/2025 09:24

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:18

I don't understand her Sexual Harrassment claim. Maybe she will lose that one?

I've been thinking about that. And I've concluded it's because she's being asked to take her clothes off in front of a man.

Not asked, told, or else.

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 09:27

Re who calls the witnesses, they are all being called by NHS Fife. We had SP's case in the first hearing along with part of Fife's case. We are now getting the rest of Fife's case.

Re the risk assessment, no-one has referred to it being in the bundle. If it existed, Fife should have produced it as it is clearly relevant, and it would be in the bundle. As no-one has referred to it, it clearly has not been produced. Whilst this could be another disclosure failure, my working assumption given the evidence to date is that there was no risk assessment.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:27

Largesso · 18/07/2025 09:20

I now am of the firm belief that DU pressured (bullied) Jamie Doyle into suspending SP and that is why they haven't called JD as a witness. It is the only reasonable inference.

That pressure from DU was huge given the context of NHS Fife being fully stonewalled at the time. Being fully stonewalled had imbued all the management staff with fear and so the initial motivation to be kind has by that point transformed into dystopian authoritarianism that is both Kafkaesque and Lord of the Flies-esque.

Women in senior management roles feel very vulnerable in those roles, still, and that vulnerability makes them wholly foolish at times.

When faced with two men: DU and JD, and the climate of fear the only available option to the weak-willed was full compliance with the ideology. The idea that the presumption of bigotry can overset all else, including due process doesn't come from nowhere, however.

This is an environment, in my view, where nurses of long standing who might be brave enough to take issue with management decisions are easily got rid of. Early retirement, pay offs, etc. There is also the classic sidelining. Not getting preferred shifts, being put on duties that are below your skills and levels -- all very good and practiced means of getting rid of dissenters without having to undertake full process. Ie it was habitual to pay women off or sideline them and never be further questioned.

In that environment DU insists to JD that SP must be suspended. He will not be satisfied with the usual slow sidelining or opportunity given for SP to jump ship. He wants visible detriment as his reward. JD is programmed to defer to Doctors within workplace political structures and is also enjoying his own level of authoritarian control over the nurses he manages. Perfect storm. Two men enjoying their borrowed power and authority ie they don't merit respect because of who they are but because of their positions and they desire some augmentation.

JD oversees ED and pushes for it. ED, new to the position, is being told by her own manager (of this process) to do suspension immediately. There is no time for a RA and is not being instructed to undertake a RA because unless DU gets what he wants immediately he will get Stonewall onboard.

There is, then, a pretence at I/X just to tick the box.

Pre-action letter comes in from SP and the shit hit the fan. HR want to see the proper documentation that resulted in suspension. There is none.

Collusion begins.

AG is appointed new i/x and knows that something more serious must be produced or they are up shit creek without a paddle so massages DU into presenting patient care concerns which had not been documented or noted in any way before June, nearly 6 months after the suspension.

If there had been a risk to patients because SP was viewed as transphobic there was no evidence to support such a fear -- no RA or questioning of SP with regard to how she would treat Trans patients. No research undertaken into whether she has treated Trans patients before. There are certainly no complaints against her.

Even though they still strongly believe that SP was in the wrong for questioning their authority (and that's what it ultimately boils down to) they also know they have to qualify that into something legal.

In fact, they are the bigots and every action and misstep declares their bigotry.

NC is laying bare that bigotry step by step.

Wow if this comes out as you've laid it out... ooft. I mean it doesn't seem far fetched with what we've heard so far.

Fifer : osha cookiebun someone's getting it sair ticht when this is done n dustit

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:27

Charabanc · 18/07/2025 09:18

I don't understand her Sexual Harrassment claim. Maybe she will lose that one?

Changing room trans row nurse tells tribunal she felt intimidated

Ms Peggie said it was discriminatory for Dr Upton, who was not registered female at birth, to use the women's changing room.
She claims she was "subjected to sexual harassment" by the medic and that NHS Fife had breached the Equality Act.

So far it would seem to me Sandie Peggie is going to win on all grounds. Waht's really sad is how many of her female colleague, supervisors and superiors were prepared to not help a woman distressed about being forced to undress in front of a man. Legally and biologically he is a man. By now he may have the legal fiction of a GRC but at the time he did not. In addition we know that the Supreme court has ruled on Biological Sex.

Sandie Peggie, a woman with shoulder-length blonde hair, smiles at the camera while sitting on a couch. She is wearing a black top.

Changing room trans row nurse tells tribunal she felt intimidated

Sandie Peggie, who was suspended after complaining about sharing a changing room with a transgender colleague, gave evidence at an employment tribunal.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cy8p41z972vo

Datun · 18/07/2025 09:27

Naomi Cunningham has already established that if a man didn't say some magic words, it would be totally discriminatory and harassment.

But the magic words changed everything.

Of course, we know they don't, and so does the Supreme Court

Mmmnotsure · 18/07/2025 09:29

Thank you @BezMills for all the information, wonderful translations, and even poems.

Merluzzo · 18/07/2025 09:29

Brilliant post @Largesso

Lougle · 18/07/2025 09:29

I think this unofficial application of 'How I think things should be' is rife in the NHS. I was a nurse and needed to take time off over a period that included a couple of weeks where I already had annual leave booked. When I returned and asked about the leave, my manager said "oh I think that's just gone." It was only when I told her that I was pretty sure that I should be able to take it at another time and would contact HR, that she contacted HR who rightly said 'of course she gets the leave at another time.'

If they can get away with it, they will. Teamwork in the NHS is only a thing if you're doing what other people want you to do. That was SP's mistake. She thought the law mattered.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 09:30

Fifer : The loddie's spent thirty bing on a deed poll fur es new lassie name, an no even bothert es airse tae spend the extra fiver n get ane ay they loddies-a-lassie-noo forms filt in?

A deh get it.

(edited wan to ane, ffs Bez, head in the game, we're no in Glesca!)

Waitwhat23 · 18/07/2025 09:32

@BezMills ah hivnae seen yon Puddock poyem for a fair lang time!

Tae a an' sundry, the Misogyonistic Monitors are aw cawed 'the puddocks' fae now on!

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