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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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23
Peregrina · 18/07/2025 08:38

Isn't it that NHS Fife said that there "was insufficient evidence to support a finding of misconduct."

My reading of that was "We still think you are guilty, but we now realise that we totally messed up in not hearing your side, not following due processes and not keeping records, so if we dare find against you, we know you will sue our arses off and we don't want that." So it was a glorified form of damage limitation on their behalf.

DontStopMe · 18/07/2025 08:39

It's a bit like a 'Not Proven' verdict: we're not able to find you guilty, but we still think you're dodgy.

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 08:42

I'm assuming @Justabaker's eminent KC neighbour is more likely to have been Akua Reindorf or Ben Cooper than Jolyon Maugham....

TimeForATerf · 18/07/2025 08:44

@inkymouse "and a Band 6 radiographer apparently isn't a thing, so in order to earn more, the radiographer has to go into an admin role, leaving the patients, and their hard-earned clinical skills, behind."

Where on earth have you got this from? DD is a radiographer, qualified in 2018, worked as a band 5 before progressing to Band 6 two years later, trained in enhanced clinical skills in paediatric fluoroscopy before taking a trainee Advance Clinical Practitioner post at a different trust last year. She's doing a trust funded PG Cert and will be a Band 7 (same as Bumbler) providing she passes her exams in August. She is 95% clinical in that role, does her own list of patients and reports on the images.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:44

Slight digression, please scroll on if you're not interested in Fife dialect

Here are a couple examples of poetry that are close to the way my elders spoke as I grew up, which I'd describe as a medium-strong central Fife dialect. I mean if you want strong, try along the road in Cowdenbeath. (Cowdenbeath is indeed the place where famous actor Burntisland Cowdenbeath got his name)

The Boy in the Train
Mary Campbell Smith

Whit wey does the engine say ‘Toot-toot’?
Is it feart to gang in the tunnel?
Whit wey is the furnace no pit oot
When the rain gangs doon the funnel?
What’ll I hae for my tea the nicht?
A herrin’, or maybe a haddie?
Has Gran’ma gotten electric licht?
Is the next stop Kirkcaddy?

There’s a hoodie-craw on yon turnip-raw!
An’ seagulls! – sax or seeven.
I’ll no fa’ oot o’ the windae, Maw,
Its sneckit, as sure as I’m leevin’.
We’re into the tunnel! we’re a’ in the dark!
But dinna be frichtit, Daddy,
We’ll sune be comin’ to Beveridge Park,
And the next stop’s Kirkcaddy!

Is yon the mune I see in the sky?
It’s awfu’ wee an’ curly,
See! there’s a coo and a cauf ootbye,
An’ a lassie pu’in’ a hurly!
He’s chackit the tickets and gien them back,
Sae gie me my ain yin, Daddy.
Lift doon the bag frae the luggage rack,
For the next stop’s Kirkcaddy!

There’s a gey wheen boats at the harbour mou’,
And eh! dae ya see the cruisers?
The cinnamon drop I was sookin’ the noo
Has tummelt an’ stuck tae ma troosers. . .
I’ll sune be ringin’ ma Gran’ma’s bell,
She’ll cry, ‘Come ben, my laddie’,
For I ken mysel’ by the queer-like smell
That the next stop’s Kirkcaddy!

The Puddock
John M. Caie

A puddock sat by the lochan’s brim,
An’ he thocht there was never a puddock like him.
He sat on his hurdies, he waggled his legs,
An’ cockit his heid as he glowered throu’ the seggs.
The bigsy wee cratur’ was feelin’ that prood,
He gapit his mou’ an’ he croakit oot lood:
“Gin ye’d a’ like tae see a richt puddock,” quo’ he,
“Ye’ll never, I’ll sweer, get a better nor me.
I’ve fem’lies an’ wives an’ a weel-plenished hame,
Wi’ drink for my thrapple an’ meat for my wame.
The lasses aye thocht me a fine strappin’ chiel,
An’ I ken I’m a rale bonny singer as weel.
I’m nae gaun tae blaw, but th’ truth I maun tell-
I believe I’m the verra MacPuddock himsel’.” …

A heron was hungry an’ needin’ tae sup,
Sae he nabbit th’ puddock and gollup’t him up;
Syne runkled his feathers: “A peer thing,” quo’ he,
“But – puddocks is nae fat they eesed tae be.”

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30
JulesJules · 18/07/2025 08:45

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 16:37

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4g2xz2wwwwo

I know this was mentioned on previous thread, but this is an odd headline given that Peggie has been cleared.

I have also put a complaint in to the BBC about this headline (I think the writer has previous form...) Annoyingly I've had to do it twice as I missed verifying my email address in time last night, distracted by a penalty shootout

myplace · 18/07/2025 08:46

This kind of justifies all that pointless paperwork and tediously slow process when a situation is ‘obvious’ I guess.

I mean, we’ve all seen companies go through painstaking and painful processes and thought ‘for goodness’ sake, get on with it, it’s glaringly obvious what should happen’.

Here we see that people can be totally wrong about the glaringly obvious.

hholiday · 18/07/2025 08:46

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 08:08

Quite.

But as an aside for discussion some other time when we are not all spellbound by NC's professionalism, I am increasingly struck by the extent to which the true believers have never had to be exposed to anything outside their own bubble. In the old days when we read paper books and magazines and newspapers and had a limited number of TV channels we came into contact with many different ideas and worldviews.

We read popular fiction produced 60 or 70 years before we were born, absorbed the fact that the world is diverse. Some of the under 30s have never had to do that. No wonder they're so narrow minded.

And they never know any history, but that's a whole other rant. As I said, for another day.

I have to say, I don’t think it helps when the BBC don’t report cases like this with balance, or just don’t report them at all. Its job should be to cut through to the people in bubbles, not blow more hot air into the bubbles.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 18/07/2025 08:47

Leaping in part way through the eternal and futile attempt to catch up: back on #29 GargoylesOfBeelzebub asked whether all employment tribunals are like this.

I believe they aren't on the whole, but GC ones (certainly any GC ones witth NC, BC or AR) definitely are - Forstater, Bailey, ERCC, Phoenix ... every single one has has jawdropping levels of delusion, incompetencea and arrogance. We've a witness who can't appear without a support person, support dog, their mother and a hidden solicitor; files of reasonable complaints and queries openly marked 'Hate'; witnesses who think they are in control of the courtroom and simply cannot grasp that the judge is in charge; judges visibly peaking as we watch; denials that the law applies to them; and endless streams of grown adults who dont know what sex they are. And always the glorious spectacle of 'our' barrister gently leading wintesses step by step into increasingly batshit admissions before BAM - trapdoor opens under them.

And so often - despite treading on every rake available and even bringing an extra rake or 2 of their own, and falling into dozens of bear traps - they stilusually leave the stand thinking they've done well. Every now and then you can see realisation dawn as questioning progresses, but it's rare.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:47

Peregrina · 18/07/2025 08:38

Isn't it that NHS Fife said that there "was insufficient evidence to support a finding of misconduct."

My reading of that was "We still think you are guilty, but we now realise that we totally messed up in not hearing your side, not following due processes and not keeping records, so if we dare find against you, we know you will sue our arses off and we don't want that." So it was a glorified form of damage limitation on their behalf.

Yeah that was pretty mealy-moothed if you ask me. I look forward to them revisiting that later, when they have to be dragged torn-faced and beelin angry into making a proper apology and restitution.

I think they're dortin because she's ca'd them oot.

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 08:49

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 08:37

Can someone confirm whether there was or was not a Risk Assessment document produced? And when.

Iff it existed, it should/would be in the bundle (not the original bundle, maybe, but certainly after they were ordered again and again to disclose various documents).

GrandmaMazur · 18/07/2025 08:52

Theres a great article by Stephen Daisley in the Spectator today:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-to-overthrow-the-lanyardocracy/

includes this scathing overview of the ET:

‘Every time a health board witness gives evidence in the proceedings, it becomes less of a mystery why NHS Fife wanted the tribunal to sit in secret. It has revealed itself to be an inept organisation, led by a hapless hierarchy, implementing guidelines that are in a very distant relationship with equalities law. If the health board had simply shredded the Equality Act and glued the pieces back together at random, it would have made for a more coherent policy than the one put in place.’

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 08:54

I think my GoaT GC moment is still Maya's appeal, when one of the GDC witnesses said how important the management felt it was to embed these cultural changes quickly and quietly. Ben Cooper just said, "And how's that working out for you?"

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 08:54

FingleGlen · 18/07/2025 08:33

Exactly. GM was asked to pick out which bit of the whole interaction she thought was the worst bit and she picked this. The fact that SP repeatedly articulated her discomfort and intimidation and asked BU to leave her alone!

Imagine being so closed to any alternative pov that you don't also see that as a cornered woman, desperate for privacy and almost begging to be given some privacy.

That's "the worst" thing SP did.

It's a dystopian nightmare.

Obviously I don't know what actually happened, but I can also understand why you might get into a conversation that referred to chromosomes and prisons if you had asked a man to leave the room and he was refusing on the grounds that he was actually a woman.

Perhaps you could quote the relevant parts of the Equality Act, but in a humiliating situation that you just want to end, chromosomes are a reference to sex and prison is a reference to recent high profile confirmation that women have rights to single sex spaces.

Perhaps there are better ways to make an argument, but I don't know if I could come up with them while trapped in a situation where my only options were to ask Dr Upton to leave, deal with menstrual flooding in front of a male colleague or bleed in the corridor.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:56

Mary! Dye ken the code for the muckle tubs ay burn cream? The hauf gallon aye. Can ye phone the ERI and get thum tae send us twa, nut, mak it fower hen.

The high heidyins are getting it ticht fae the papers and we're aboot tae run oot.

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 08:57

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:47

Yeah that was pretty mealy-moothed if you ask me. I look forward to them revisiting that later, when they have to be dragged torn-faced and beelin angry into making a proper apology and restitution.

I think they're dortin because she's ca'd them oot.

The only proper, unequivocal apology I've seen in any of these cases was to James Esses from the Metanoia Institute. Oddly, it's disappeared from their website, but it's still quite easy to find online.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:57

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 08:54

I think my GoaT GC moment is still Maya's appeal, when one of the GDC witnesses said how important the management felt it was to embed these cultural changes quickly and quietly. Ben Cooper just said, "And how's that working out for you?"

Did he say "It would be unkind of me to ask how that's working out for you"?

Ben's a right one!

AlexandraLeaving · 18/07/2025 08:59

I want to celebrate a brief moment of being up to date with the threads. It won’t last. Thank you to everyone for the commentary, and to @Justabaker for TT and esp to @BezMills for the translations. You’ve made me homesick. Both those poems we had to learn at school and I can still recite them when required (and Schule In June, and The Sair Finger, and The Crocodile and…).

SqueakyDinosaur · 18/07/2025 09:00

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:57

Did he say "It would be unkind of me to ask how that's working out for you"?

Ben's a right one!

Edited

Yes I think you're right! Very gentle and courteous assassin, BC...

oldwomanwhoruns · 18/07/2025 09:05

Can someone explain why Naomi hasn't demanded to see the elusive Risk Assessment? Or perhaps she has asked for it? Seeing as the last witness claimed that it was the vital document on which everything hung !!

Why hadn't it been demanded??

mrshoho · 18/07/2025 09:05

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 05:59

It looks as though the job exists purely to promote ideology and hiring is done on that basis. Fife won't be the only one.

Yes, poor Isla thought she'd be sorting out displays of flags, bunting, badges, lanyards and maybe the odd pavement and crossing repainting jobs. It is almost too unbelievable that she actually admitted to googling other NHS Trusts DEI policies to obtain info!

oldwomanwhoruns · 18/07/2025 09:07

Yes i heard her say goggling, too. Gobsmacking. I don't know if TT recorded the actual word.

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 09:09

Witnesses still to come in this circus

  • Louise Curran, senior charge nurse
  • Maggie Currer, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Peter Donaldson, information security manager
  • Angela Glancey, clinical nurse manager
  • Anne Hamilton, HR adviser
  • Lauren Harris, senior charge nurse
  • Lottie Myles, service manager
  • Lindsey Nicoll, emergency nurse practitioner
  • Elspeth Pitt, consultant in emergency medicine
  • Fiona Wishart, emergency nurse practitioner

And Kate Searle - Upton's line manager

All women except for Peter.

Justabaker · 18/07/2025 09:10

oldwomanwhoruns · 18/07/2025 09:07

Yes i heard her say goggling, too. Gobsmacking. I don't know if TT recorded the actual word.

Yes she said googling. I think I tweeted it because it made me snicker.

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 18/07/2025 09:10

GrandmaMazur · 18/07/2025 08:52

Theres a great article by Stephen Daisley in the Spectator today:
www.spectator.co.uk/article/its-time-to-overthrow-the-lanyardocracy/

includes this scathing overview of the ET:

‘Every time a health board witness gives evidence in the proceedings, it becomes less of a mystery why NHS Fife wanted the tribunal to sit in secret. It has revealed itself to be an inept organisation, led by a hapless hierarchy, implementing guidelines that are in a very distant relationship with equalities law. If the health board had simply shredded the Equality Act and glued the pieces back together at random, it would have made for a more coherent policy than the one put in place.’

That is an excellent description of the Fife Mismanagement team and board.

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