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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 18/07/2025 07:52

Good morning lovelies. Charged 2 phones and my laptop, ready to sit in a singular position to read today's TT at least until school pick up.

Packet of biscuits bought for sustenance and cups lined up by the kettle for a continuous stream of tea.

Never been more organised in my life.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 07:53

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 23:00

BezMills · Today 21:11
Shifty look
I was serving my community! Je nae regrette eh hen.

SternJoyousBee · Today 21:40
Je ne dinae ken pas

Nice to see the Auld Alliance still influence language 730 years later😄

Aye le vieux alliance c'est tres bonnie!

BezMills · 18/07/2025 07:56

Justabaker · 18/07/2025 06:00

Dropping in my gossip from this week.

I've managed to get a seat in the main hearing room both days - I reported until lunchtime when another TT member has taken over.

I was sitting next to a well known highly respected KC, who was there to observe and chatted a bit at the break when obvious that I was TT. Said it seemed a bit of a busman's holiday. Reply 'always learning'. Not saying who because the person actually snickered at a particularly egregious bit of GM's evidence. I think it may have the 3rd or 4th time the Schrodingers Risk Assessment was blamed for the suspension.

No one from the Respondents there yesterday. Not even the solicitor. So no client to take instructions from or express concerns about how things are going etc. JR alternating between apparently helpful & pleasant and looking sulky. Her junior (may be a solicitor not a barrister) considerably less smug than in February.

I have no insider knowledge but I do not believe that NC is acting pro bono. I know of cases where she has; I think Melanie Newman and Lizzie Pitt she was either pro bono or on a shoestring budget. She has a very skilled junior, the steno team, Margaret Gribbon is a top solicitor and they are paying the steno team. They may be sharing the costs with Rs but I don't think so.

The Judge & Panel are keeping their poker faces on but the questions seemed very pointed.

thanks as ever @Justabaker to you and the others at TT. I've been cribbing your homework all day yesterday (and plan to repeat it today all being well). Mon the TT!

SternJoyousBee · 18/07/2025 07:57

Shedmistress · 18/07/2025 04:35

I have family here so am catching up at night but this really is a clusterfuck. Suspending someone is really bloody serious and I do have to ask where were the actual HR team in all this? It's like spoilt school kids are running the place. We couldn't suspend anyone without many eyes on the process/procedure/letters etc. And it was to be avoided at all costs and only in the most serious of cases.

This is so ludicrous.

The suspension decision is totally suss. ED couldn’t remember if she had written the RA. GM could not recall if she had read the RA but was adamant that the decision was a sound one. And I believe HR were being given a stiff ignoring due to inconveniently not giving the ‘right’ sort of advice.

Conxis · 18/07/2025 07:58

BIG thank you to @nauticant@BezMillsand @Justabaker for all your hard work bringing this to life in real time for so many of us. Hopefully there’s thousands quietly reading this thread

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:01

Deadcog · 18/07/2025 07:40

Thank you @Justabaker for TT and @BezMills and others for kindly reposting them here so I can enjoy them with MN commentary. (I will be a foolhardy, lone voice and say I prefer unembellished TTs).

yes I respect that, and I appreciate the thanks anyway!

You do get a thread reader app unroll at the end of every session, so you could read the TT that way every couple hours, if it's not convenient for you to read them live.

I will pick up again today, at least in the morning.

I'm getting my TT from here (nitter mirror) https://lightbrd.com/tribunaltweets - you don't need a twitter account

Petesplumbing · 18/07/2025 08:01

Whew, it a rollercoaster catching up with TT and then zipping over here for the commentary.

i had a quiet little cheer myself when i read the tweet with Peter’s reappearance!

CarefulN0w · 18/07/2025 08:02

On the Drs changing room issue, ISTR that there were alternative changing rooms on a different floor, but that these weren’t really used by ED staff as it was more convenient to use the closer ones. Were the ones on the other floor designated for Drs?

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:02

Big Sond : That fuckin Pete the Plumber, he's bloody follayin me I sweer it.

WannabeEDIOfficer · 18/07/2025 08:04

I am WFH today and need to crack on. I might physically put my mobile in another room so am not tempted to look.

Thank you to tribunal tweets and all the contributors. I will see you on the other side. Or during my tea and lunch break.

jawsnsharks · 18/07/2025 08:08

I'm off out to get the eldest a new swim costume and pic up some bits for dinner.
I've done a couple of hours of work already and will do more this evening. For today's ET I will be on the floor cleaning an antique African carving that is caked in 150 years of mud and grime and getting a crick in my neck glancing up at the screen on my desk. I like to ponder what everyone else is up to as they also listen along to the fuckwittery.

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 08:08

murasaki · 18/07/2025 00:16

I would have thought it was part of IB's job to keep abreast of any tribunals, court cases, political issues etc related to any category that might fall under the EDI remit. Just as basic non official cpd.

Quite.

But as an aside for discussion some other time when we are not all spellbound by NC's professionalism, I am increasingly struck by the extent to which the true believers have never had to be exposed to anything outside their own bubble. In the old days when we read paper books and magazines and newspapers and had a limited number of TV channels we came into contact with many different ideas and worldviews.

We read popular fiction produced 60 or 70 years before we were born, absorbed the fact that the world is diverse. Some of the under 30s have never had to do that. No wonder they're so narrow minded.

And they never know any history, but that's a whole other rant. As I said, for another day.

Bannedontherun · 18/07/2025 08:10

Just throwing this in I am not completely comfortable disrobing in front of females so there is no way i could change clothes In front of of a man.

RedToothBrush · 18/07/2025 08:15

Nameychangington · 18/07/2025 07:37

In my Trust the EDI person is trans, the unison rep is trans, the freedom to speak up guardian (the whole point of which is to be neutral) has pronouns in her email signature and the Comms team has an official policy of changing all language to 'neutral' language (e.g. changes pregnant women to pregnant people) in every comms they send out. If you capture those kind of posts, it's a done deal.

Show quote history

ERCC recruitment policy was to hire known individuals or individuals with next to no experience into certain roles including trustees.

Brainworm · 18/07/2025 08:17

Nameychangington · 18/07/2025 07:37

Show quote history

It’s a done deal for finding yourselves in an employment tribunal and losing!

Lots of executives in NHS trusts thought they were doing their bit for DEI by hiring blue hair types to DEI and associated HR roles. They thought these roles like the women in the bikinis were who pointed to the score board and prizes in TV games shows in the 70s and 80s. They are slowly learning the cost of this way of thinking!

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 08:20

The two up in court today:

Sandie Peggie tribunal live: Case against NHS Fife resumes | The Herald

Today, the tribunal is expected to hear from two more NHS Fife witnesses: Dr Elspeth Pitt, Consultant in Emergency Medicine, and Louise Curran, Senior Charge Nurse.

Live updates: Sandie Peggie tribunal continues with more NHS Fife witnesses

Follow live coverage from the tribunal brought by nurse Sandie Peggie against NHS Fife and Dr Beth Upton, as two new key witnesses give evidence.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/25322967.sandie-peggie-tribunal-live-case-nhs-fife-resumes/

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 08:24

CarefulN0w · 18/07/2025 08:02

Early on in the case, I think it was established that the proper A&E changing rooms were down a floor (in the basement), but everybody just used the locker-room next to A&E because it was closer.

On X, somebody stated that there was also a Drs restroom downstairs (with sofas/fridge/microwave etc), but I don’t think they hung around long enough to answer whether there were changing facilities just for Drs down there.

Somebody found a floorplan of A&E (from a treasurehunt for new Drs?) back in the spring.

lissetteattheRitz · 18/07/2025 08:30

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 18/07/2025 07:52

Good morning lovelies. Charged 2 phones and my laptop, ready to sit in a singular position to read today's TT at least until school pick up.

Packet of biscuits bought for sustenance and cups lined up by the kettle for a continuous stream of tea.

Never been more organised in my life.

Brilliant! I was in holiday for the first few days of this tribunal and was thoroughly distracted away from the Roman exhibits I was supposed to be enjoying. But Sandie and Naomi are Goddesses...

Doing post holiday washing today and so looking forward to following along.

Largesso · 18/07/2025 08:32

NCembarassed · 18/07/2025 01:34

I think I must be having a dim moment, as there's something I don't understand...

Sandie has been cleared of all allegations. So why are all those on the stand (from NHS Fife) talking as if that isn't the case?

I do understand the case is largely about what happened up until the investigation & it's conclusion earlier this week. There's a total lack of apology/reflection on their part, the onus is still very much on SP.

It feel as if they're trying to repeat the investigation and rewrite SP as guilty. The Panel questions at the end of today were interesting.

They are under instruction not to read news and SM about the case so if they are following that instruction they shouldn’t know. If they are not following the instruction they are pretending not to know and that would be a complicated position to maintain but it might explain why GM is hedging her bets around concerns for patient care — she didn’t know/ can’t recall/ wasn’t involved but has some vague recollection of concerns over patient safety.

INeedAPensieve · 18/07/2025 08:33

Alas still working today but as it's Friday I'm WFH so hoping to do some sneaky checks to find out what's going on.

Interested to hear from these named witnesses today.

FingleGlen · 18/07/2025 08:33

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 23:55

While potentially blood is dripping down her legs and she is just desperate to have some privacy to change?

Show quote history

Exactly. GM was asked to pick out which bit of the whole interaction she thought was the worst bit and she picked this. The fact that SP repeatedly articulated her discomfort and intimidation and asked BU to leave her alone!

Imagine being so closed to any alternative pov that you don't also see that as a cornered woman, desperate for privacy and almost begging to be given some privacy.

That's "the worst" thing SP did.

It's a dystopian nightmare.

BezMills · 18/07/2025 08:34

It's hard not to be aware of some things to be fair. If you're walking down the corner shop for rolls and the Daily Ranger has a headline board outside "Trans Row Nurse Cleared In Misconduct Investigation" you can't help that.

TwiceForLunch · 18/07/2025 08:34

PMK

guinnessguzzler · 18/07/2025 08:37

DeanElderberry · 18/07/2025 08:08

Quite.

We read popular fiction produced 60 or 70 years before we were born, absorbed the fact that the world is diverse. Some of the under 30s have never had to do that. No wonder they're so narrow minded.

And they never know any history, but that's a whole other rant. As I said, for another day.

Show quote history

I've said it before but I'll say it again, this was always going to be their downfall. Their biggest mistake was 'no debate' because it meant the TRAs a) never heard or had the chance to consider the key arguments against them and b) had absolutely no idea of the scale and strength of objection. Completely agree that wider cultural changes fed into this too. We have access to more information than ever but that also means we can, and to an extent have to, filter it, so it is easy to get yourself into an echo chamber. I know some might say that's exactly what these boards are but I think we do our best here to use reason and logic, to ask to understand and to challenge respectfully. There are clear examples of all those things throughout these threads.

Cailin66 · 18/07/2025 08:37

Can someone confirm whether there was or was not a Risk Assessment document produced? And when.

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