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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
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23
Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 00:30

murasaki · 18/07/2025 00:16

I would have thought it was part of IB's job to keep abreast of any tribunals, court cases, political issues etc related to any category that might fall under the EDI remit. Just as basic non official cpd.

Remember she was effectively straight out of uni, landed a big job and it appears there was nobody to guide her. Although surely she should have asked her line manager if she wasn't sure on the correct course of action.

Do EDI people even have a professional body that can guide them, insist they do CPD? Like HR have a professional body, nurses have RCN etc?

The more you think about it the bigger the hole becomes.

FrothyCothy · 18/07/2025 00:40

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 00:11

It seems not, but one of the strange things about this case is that it feels more 2019 than 2023.

Everything happened post Forstater, post Haldane, post Isla Bryson and the related political fall out for Sturgeon - but apparently NHS Fife hadn’t noticed any of this.

I think some public bodies are just unfathomably way behind the times. The very large public sector body I work for posted a news article on the intranet this week about allyship and pronouns in email signatures. It’s like the last few years have completely passed them by.

prh47bridge · 18/07/2025 00:58

Having been otherwise engaged, I've only skimmed this evening's posts. However, to pick up on a few points I've noticed.

As this is a civil case, it is decided on the balance of probabilities. Neither side has to prove their case beyond reasonable doubt. The burden of proof was initially with SP to show that her claim is valid. If the court agrees that she has achieved that, the burden moves to Fife. They could either disprove the claim or show that they had a legitimate, fair reason for their actions.

Regarding discussing what happens, the only restriction is that those who are watching the live feed must not post about it whilst the proceedings are going on. They are free to post whatever they want during breaks in proceedings and at the end of the day.

Any offers to settle that have been made have no bearing on the judge's decision on compensation. They only come into play when considering costs. If the judge considers that SP has unreasonably refused an offer to settle, Fife could be awarded their costs from the point the offer was made onwards. Whether a refusal is unreasonable isn't just about the money. If an offer is conditional on SP accepting an NDA, the judge may take the view that it was reasonable for SP to reject that offer regardless of the amount of money on the table.

Finally, whilst this judge did rule against Gillian Philip in her case against Working Partners, I wouldn't read anything into that regarding his views on trans issues. I note she tweeted a couple of weeks ago that she lost because he didn't believe she was emotionally harmed by Working Partners. I'm afraid that thoroughly misrepresents the decision. That is not why she lost. She lost because the judge ruled that she was not an employee or worker within the meaning of the relevant legislation and the Employment Appeal Tribunal agreed. Maybe the law needs to change to bring non-traditional working arrangements like hers under the umbrella of employment protection but, as the law stands, she did not have those protections.

Oshio · 18/07/2025 01:03

I haven't followed the trial in much detail, but all I have to say is that women generally don't want to undress or do personal things in front of males that they're not in a relationship with, and the fact we have had to fight so hard due to denial of this basic right is just unbelievable to me.

dunBle · 18/07/2025 01:09

Finally caught up with everything from today. Just wanted to thank everyone for the updates, especially @BezMills for the Fifian interjections, which had me howling on several occasions. The evidence as reported continues to cement the impression that if nothing else NHS Fife need to get their arses seriously kicked for what was an utter shambles of a disciplinary process at best.

NCembarassed · 18/07/2025 01:34

I think I must be having a dim moment, as there's something I don't understand...

Sandie has been cleared of all allegations. So why are all those on the stand (from NHS Fife) talking as if that isn't the case?

I do understand the case is largely about what happened up until the investigation & it's conclusion earlier this week. There's a total lack of apology/reflection on their part, the onus is still very much on SP.

It feel as if they're trying to repeat the investigation and rewrite SP as guilty. The Panel questions at the end of today were interesting.

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 18/07/2025 01:47

Isn't it that NHS Fife said that there "was insufficient evidence to support a finding of misconduct." @NCembarassed?

So, they all still reeeeeeeeallllly believe that she was guilty of misconduct despite the evidence of their eyes and ears, so since feelings are King, hence she must be guilty. Evidence? What evidence??

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 01:58

God only knows what they believe.

But basically she appears to have been suspended on a whim.
They've tried (and failed) to back fit a claim against her.
They hoped Upton would move on, Sandie would be cleared, and they'd all get back to work. Nothing to see.

They didn't bank on having to defend their actions with thousands watching.
They know they've fucked up.
So now they are just trying to get through the grilling as best they can. While trying to protect their own backs.

cigarsmokingwoman · 18/07/2025 03:25

murasaki · 18/07/2025 00:16

I would have thought it was part of IB's job to keep abreast of any tribunals, court cases, political issues etc related to any category that might fall under the EDI remit. Just as basic non official cpd.

As someone who used to work in DEI, I can confirm this is what I did!
Left the field mainly due to redundancy but also got fed up with the gender woo.
I've met way too many Isla Bumba's - young, inexperienced, overpaid, drinking the kool aid, thinking they know more than someone older (like in SPs case)

inkymoose · 18/07/2025 04:28

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 16:38

I'm not sure if it's the same post you are referring to. But someone made the point that generally, nurses have to be very experienced to get the band 7/8 jobs, whereas people like Isla Bumba often walk into non-nursing band 8 roles with irrelevant qualifications and very little experience.

It usually takes years, starting at band 5, for a nurse to get to a band 7/8.

A post on the previous thread discussed radiographers and their banding. Agenda for Change places clinical staff, frontline staff that is, dealing with patients every day, on Band 5 and to progress further up the bandings they need to do more and more non-clinical work. So a Band 6 nurse has more managerial and supervisory responsibility than a Band 5 nurse, and a Band 6 radiographer apparently isn't a thing, so in order to earn more, the radiographer has to go into an admin role, leaving the patients, and their hard-earned clinical skills, behind. Nurses can then go for Band 7 or Band 8 jobs. As far as I know, Band 8 jobs are almost entirely managerial roles. Band 7 could be specialist nurse roles, but those are in short supply, and require much extra training, where training courses are also in short supply, and are demanding of a lot of time and effort whilst continuing to work at the existing role.

If you are an excellent practitioner, a hard-working, experienced nurse or allied health professional, you will not be rewarded with better pay and conditions unless you leave your practice and go into the heady world of telling other people how to do their jobs and having meetings with managers higher up the pay scale who will tell you you need to reduce frontline staff and make the books balance. Patients? What patients.

Edit - apologies for the ridiculous time of posting. I'm unable to sleep tonight, it's too hot and I have post op pain from a recent major operation, because I have been overdoing things.

Shedmistress · 18/07/2025 04:35

I have family here so am catching up at night but this really is a clusterfuck. Suspending someone is really bloody serious and I do have to ask where were the actual HR team in all this? It's like spoilt school kids are running the place. We couldn't suspend anyone without many eyes on the process/procedure/letters etc. And it was to be avoided at all costs and only in the most serious of cases.

This is so ludicrous.

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 05:59

Needspaceforlego · 18/07/2025 00:30

Remember she was effectively straight out of uni, landed a big job and it appears there was nobody to guide her. Although surely she should have asked her line manager if she wasn't sure on the correct course of action.

Do EDI people even have a professional body that can guide them, insist they do CPD? Like HR have a professional body, nurses have RCN etc?

The more you think about it the bigger the hole becomes.

It looks as though the job exists purely to promote ideology and hiring is done on that basis. Fife won't be the only one.

Justabaker · 18/07/2025 06:00

Dropping in my gossip from this week.

I've managed to get a seat in the main hearing room both days - I reported until lunchtime when another TT member has taken over.

I was sitting next to a well known highly respected KC, who was there to observe and chatted a bit at the break when obvious that I was TT. Said it seemed a bit of a busman's holiday. Reply 'always learning'. Not saying who because the person actually snickered at a particularly egregious bit of GM's evidence. I think it may have the 3rd or 4th time the Schrodingers Risk Assessment was blamed for the suspension.

No one from the Respondents there yesterday. Not even the solicitor. So no client to take instructions from or express concerns about how things are going etc. JR alternating between apparently helpful & pleasant and looking sulky. Her junior (may be a solicitor not a barrister) considerably less smug than in February.

I have no insider knowledge but I do not believe that NC is acting pro bono. I know of cases where she has; I think Melanie Newman and Lizzie Pitt she was either pro bono or on a shoestring budget. She has a very skilled junior, the steno team, Margaret Gribbon is a top solicitor and they are paying the steno team. They may be sharing the costs with Rs but I don't think so.

The Judge & Panel are keeping their poker faces on but the questions seemed very pointed.

<oh and I finally understand the concerns about mocking IB's name - it's her married name....>

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 06:28

NCembarassed · 18/07/2025 01:34

I think I must be having a dim moment, as there's something I don't understand...

Sandie has been cleared of all allegations. So why are all those on the stand (from NHS Fife) talking as if that isn't the case?

I do understand the case is largely about what happened up until the investigation & it's conclusion earlier this week. There's a total lack of apology/reflection on their part, the onus is still very much on SP.

It feel as if they're trying to repeat the investigation and rewrite SP as guilty. The Panel questions at the end of today were interesting.

From Michael Foran’s podcast they are supposed to be avoiding media coverage of the case so shouldn’t know that she was cleared.

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 06:47

Interesting insight (and excellent tweeting-thankyou) from Justabaker.

It is right and proper that those responsible for the whole debacle are cross examined, but I would have expected NHS Fife and the legal bit to send somebody along to observe/support them.

On X, one of the observers commented that they could all hear when the overspill room broke into spontaneous applause after a particularly clever bit of NC’s questionning.

Signalbox · 18/07/2025 07:05

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 06:28

From Michael Foran’s podcast they are supposed to be avoiding media coverage of the case so shouldn’t know that she was cleared.

I wish Foran had explained why it’s their tactic to continue as if she was under investigation. How can their case be that she acted in a certain way when she’s been cleared of doing so? Do the judges even know she’s been cleared? It doesn’t seem to make sense. Also what are the chances none of them know she’s been cleared?

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 07:10

Signalbox · 18/07/2025 07:05

I wish Foran had explained why it’s their tactic to continue as if she was under investigation. How can their case be that she acted in a certain way when she’s been cleared of doing so? Do the judges even know she’s been cleared? It doesn’t seem to make sense. Also what are the chances none of them know she’s been cleared?

I suppose witnesses are answering questions about what they understood and believed at the time.

No idea about legal strategy!

PlasticAcrobat · 18/07/2025 07:18

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 06:28

From Michael Foran’s podcast they are supposed to be avoiding media coverage of the case so shouldn’t know that she was cleared.

But could they (would they? should/shouldn't they?) have been told this in the context of their employment? Surely at least some of the job roles of the witnesses will have involved being informed about the outcome of disciplinary processes?

Perhaps that does suggest a reason for the eve-of-hearing press announcement of the findings of the disciplinary, though? It may be that it wasn't finalised/announced within NHS Fife itself until all the witnesses were off work to attend the case, to minimise the cognitive dissonance that would result for them if they knew they were defending actions based on 'misconduct' that hadn't been found to have actually occurred.

KnottyAuty · 18/07/2025 07:27

Justabaker · 18/07/2025 06:00

Dropping in my gossip from this week.

I've managed to get a seat in the main hearing room both days - I reported until lunchtime when another TT member has taken over.

I was sitting next to a well known highly respected KC, who was there to observe and chatted a bit at the break when obvious that I was TT. Said it seemed a bit of a busman's holiday. Reply 'always learning'. Not saying who because the person actually snickered at a particularly egregious bit of GM's evidence. I think it may have the 3rd or 4th time the Schrodingers Risk Assessment was blamed for the suspension.

No one from the Respondents there yesterday. Not even the solicitor. So no client to take instructions from or express concerns about how things are going etc. JR alternating between apparently helpful & pleasant and looking sulky. Her junior (may be a solicitor not a barrister) considerably less smug than in February.

I have no insider knowledge but I do not believe that NC is acting pro bono. I know of cases where she has; I think Melanie Newman and Lizzie Pitt she was either pro bono or on a shoestring budget. She has a very skilled junior, the steno team, Margaret Gribbon is a top solicitor and they are paying the steno team. They may be sharing the costs with Rs but I don't think so.

The Judge & Panel are keeping their poker faces on but the questions seemed very pointed.

<oh and I finally understand the concerns about mocking IB's name - it's her married name....>

Thank you so much for everything! Brilliant work.

Schrodingers Risk Assessment 🤣🤣🤣

NebulousDog · 18/07/2025 07:33

It certainly seemed to me that nobody questioned this week knew the outcome of the investigation. I’d have to go back a few threads to see what it was about IB’s answers that made me think she hadn’t known about the outcome.

I think there would have been a lot more butt-covering had they known.

Presumably all this week’s witnesses are on annual leave? With Sandie’s face all over the Scottish press it is going to be hard to miss.

Merrymouse · 18/07/2025 07:36

PlasticAcrobat · 18/07/2025 07:18

But could they (would they? should/shouldn't they?) have been told this in the context of their employment? Surely at least some of the job roles of the witnesses will have involved being informed about the outcome of disciplinary processes?

Perhaps that does suggest a reason for the eve-of-hearing press announcement of the findings of the disciplinary, though? It may be that it wasn't finalised/announced within NHS Fife itself until all the witnesses were off work to attend the case, to minimise the cognitive dissonance that would result for them if they knew they were defending actions based on 'misconduct' that hadn't been found to have actually occurred.

Agree - this does suggest a reason for the late announcement.

Nameychangington · 18/07/2025 07:37

ThatCyanCat · 18/07/2025 05:59

It looks as though the job exists purely to promote ideology and hiring is done on that basis. Fife won't be the only one.

In my Trust the EDI person is trans, the unison rep is trans, the freedom to speak up guardian (the whole point of which is to be neutral) has pronouns in her email signature and the Comms team has an official policy of changing all language to 'neutral' language (e.g. changes pregnant women to pregnant people) in every comms they send out. If you capture those kind of posts, it's a done deal.

Deadcog · 18/07/2025 07:40

Thank you @Justabaker for TT and @BezMills and others for kindly reposting them here so I can enjoy them with MN commentary. (I will be a foolhardy, lone voice and say I prefer unembellished TTs).

cigarsmokingwoman · 18/07/2025 07:40

@Justabaker can you tell us more about the apparent applause? Was it really heard by everyone (including the NHS Fife lot and the wonderful Naomi herself?)

Szygy · 18/07/2025 07:46

ArealAdultHumanFemale · 17/07/2025 23:12

That is indeed interesting. VERY interesting.

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