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Original poster

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

OP posts:

Thread gallery

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:00

Unfortunately dug their own hole with tax payers money! 🤑

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 22:04

BezMills · 17/07/2025 21:50

A can see we've another Fifecais speaker. Ça Markinch?

Je ye souhaite a bonnie soirée an that alors

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Lanarkshire rather than Fife….but emigrated doon South

Largesso · 17/07/2025 22:04

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 21:50

Where did you listen please?

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On his Substack. You have to subscribe but can get a 7 day free trial.

NImumconfused · 17/07/2025 22:07

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 21:50

Oh for a pro bono solicitor or barrister. Mine cost I think about £1600/ hour for my tribunal.

But then my legal fees were £125 000, so at some point it just became like monopoly money!!

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Wow, I knew they were expensive, but not that expensive!!

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 22:09

KnottyAuty · 17/07/2025 21:33

Impressions from today’ watching:

The disciplinary process was somehow something they all were talking about and simultaneously a hot potato that no one wanted to be involved in. Lots of buck-passing…

GM today seemed more convincing than IB yesterday because she was prepared to agree with obviously sensible questions. And appeared baffled when asked (maybe 1st or 2nd question put to her) if she knew what her own sex was?!

GM was lured into repeatedly talking about the process and then caught in NC’s traps.

It was the risk assessment (by others) that led to SP’s suspension. All proper process - nothing to see here …. oh dear …. it looks like the risk assessment was prepopulated and pre-dated SP’s interview. That shouldn’t have happened.
Confidentiality a very very important part of the process. Very important! SP was sent a standard letter to remind her not to talk to anyone about the case….. oh dear …. It was sent to SP 7 months after the incident - bit late …. Oh dear…. no such letter was sent to Upton…. Oh dear ….. Dr Searle emailed 20 colleagues condemning Sandie’s behaviour 5 days after the incident (before an investigation started) and Upton’s emailed his witness statement to key witnesses asking for their comments thereby compromising everyone’s integrity…. That shouldn’t have happened.
Sandie’s behaviour was the problem and on multiple events and we all agreed she harassed Upton and referred to Isla Bryson and chromosomes - what an awful woman! ….oh dear ….. we got the whole take from Upton and didnt bother to ask Sandie… [and we remain unaware of the Tribunal part 1 where Upton downplayed all this under oath admitting it was all exaggerated/didn’t happen so don’t realise how ridiculous we sound perpetuating claims that Upton himself has effectively withdrawn….].
Also she said using discriminatory language was a disciplinary offence - while simultaneously misgendering Upton and admitting it was clear he was male.

I would summarise her evidence as “it wasnae me - a big boy did it an’ ran away”.

The managers joined in on a pile-on where they all collectively decided that Sandie was the problem and they made it all up as they went along instead of following proper policy.

Towards the end the Judge and panel members asked pointed questions. My recollection was that they wanted to know about who was responsible since GM wasnt responsible for anything at all gov! Goodness knows how they’re retaining all this information - the bundle is 2 huge lever arch files plus the hearing notes.

After 2 days it seems fairly clear to me from the evidence so far - NHS Fife have failed on process/procedure. Firstly they allowed Upton’s to use the CR without even considering women’s rights so enabled his sex discrimination of female staff as well as their own discrimination against the women. Following on from that there are clear detriments to Peggie including multiple ongoing suspensions, defamation via Dr Searle’s email, hostile work environment etc etc. They also completely failed to run a fair disciplinary process. JR doesn’t seem to have any defence - it’s all damage limitation at this point. They have been well and truly “Fife’d” and we are only 2 days into part 2. What else can come up?

It was sent to SP 7 months after the incident

I got the impression (likely incorrect and I can't find from where now) that SP was sent the confidentiality letter after reports of the case appeared in a news report - anyone know if I have remembered this correctly?

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 22:11

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 22:00

I had to self fund so had to settle

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So did I. But I wasn't settling. They caved literally the day before and offered a figure, but after ten years of them telling me to fuck off I still went through with the tribunal. The judge was very unimpressed with them!

I won! But still had to pay my own legal bill, they were never going to be liable to pay them. That was bittersweet

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 22:11

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:48

Hope so too. It seemed to me key as well that when Sandie's manager went to IB about the changing room she didn't tell her that there was a staff member upset and uncomfortable who had raised it with her. IB even said yesterday that anyone who was uncomfortable should talk to their manager, which obviously she did!

All this "advice" wasn't complete. And anyway, doesn't remove their responsibility to protect Sandie from harassment. Which I would argue is of a sexual nature but I have no idea how that works legally - i.e. nothing to suggest Dr. Upton a voyeur. There's been a few lines of questioning along the sexual lines.

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We only have IBs word for that….and hasn’t KS already asked the question about what cr Upton’s could use? I need to go back and read EDs testimony again. I would be surprised if she hadn’t mentioned that she was asking because a female nurse was asking the question. Did IB think the question was being asked just out of interest in the subject?

Am I the only person that would ask “why are you asking?” before giving an answer. I always used to encourage my team to not always take questions at face value as very often the person isn’t asking the correct questions to get the answer they need.

borntobequiet · 17/07/2025 22:14

Namechangedagain999 · 17/07/2025 19:54

Sorry for my ignorance but is there a link to complain?

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint/#/Complaint%20Summary

Make A Complaint | Contact the BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints/make-a-complaint#/Complaint%20Summary

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 22:15

NImumconfused · 17/07/2025 22:07

Wow, I knew they were expensive, but not that expensive!!

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I'd have to dig out the paperwork, and I can't be arsed, but that's the figure that springs to mind. She was worth the money though.

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 22:20

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 22:11

I won! But still had to pay my own legal bill, they were never going to be liable to pay them. That was bittersweet

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I did not have that sort of funds available

and actually got my total revenge a few years later so its good

rebmacesrevda · 17/07/2025 22:20

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 22:04

Lanarkshire rather than Fife….but emigrated doon South

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L'anarkshire, n'est-ce pas?

Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 22:20

The barrister for my charity was 1100 per hour, that was 15 years ago.

was charged half due to being a charity

mrshoho · 17/07/2025 22:21

I'm envious right now of this collective arse sitting. So annoyed we don't break up til next Tuesday ffs. I'm hanging by a thread and don't get to arse sit all day until Wednesday!

Bluebootsgreenboots · 17/07/2025 22:23

Me neither @mrshoho - fortunately only p/t so kept up yesterday and today - the next 3 days are going to be impossible !!

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 22:24

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 17/07/2025 22:09

It was sent to SP 7 months after the incident

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I think it was said that SP was 'reminded' after reports started appearing in press. From TT substack, the first media reports were July 2024 so that tracks.

One of the press reports today included extracts from Sandie's investigation interviews where she was asked how it was going being back at work, and she told them that it was hard because of people having been told not to talk to her about the case.

I feel so so so impatient to see and hear Kate Searle in the witness box! But also feel maybe she deserves another weekend of being unable to completely avoid headlines, and feeling at least a little of the pain she caused Sandie.

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:25

@SternJoyousBee different managers I think, Esther Davidson (ED) was Sandie's line manager who she went to about her issue.

Dr Upton asked Kate Searle the A&E consultant if could use changing room (after already using it ..)

I entirely agree I would want context. Remember this seems to be IB first professional job...I could see it being the sort of thing a new naive graduate might not do...

If you find anything useful please let me know as Feb was some time ago and this all resembles the spaghetti junction of reporting structures!

Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 22:29

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 22:15

I'd have to dig out the paperwork, and I can't be arsed, but that's the figure that springs to mind. She was worth the money though.

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Fookn hell boiled. I think a few of us knocking around have had the stammer to challenge bullshit in our individual lives. lived to tell the tale and gone on to be, none compromising, bullshit detector machines.

Binglebong · 17/07/2025 22:30

Waitwhat23 · 17/07/2025 20:59

I bet that one HR person who actually talked sense is feeling pretty smug round about now.

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I miss that there was a sane one - what happened with them?

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 22:32

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:25

@SternJoyousBee different managers I think, Esther Davidson (ED) was Sandie's line manager who she went to about her issue.

Dr Upton asked Kate Searle the A&E consultant if could use changing room (after already using it ..)

I entirely agree I would want context. Remember this seems to be IB first professional job...I could see it being the sort of thing a new naive graduate might not do...

If you find anything useful please let me know as Feb was some time ago and this all resembles the spaghetti junction of reporting structures!

Just check TT substack now.

I mentioned KS because I thought Upton mentioned in his testimony that he had checked with KS about using female CR

But it’s seems that ED didn’t mention that a nurse was concerned:

ED - Sandie said that Beth was using the female CR I hadn't
thought about the CR, I had seen Beth a fair amount in a prev role in psychiatry but I hadn't thought about it. SP told me that she was uncomfortable. I didn't know what the Trust's policy was and I would follow up. ..
JR - before we get there what did you say to SP
ED - I said I would look into it, I don't want anyone feeling uncomfortable, I felt empathetic to her
JR - you said that you did something that day, you contacted the ED manager, who was that
ED - Isla Bumber (sp), IB,
JR - when did you contact her
ED - after she was in the
office, not everyone starts at 7:30.
JR - what time did you talk with SP
ED - 7:40 or so, then got in touch with IB as soon as I could
JR - what did you say to IB
ED - I explained that there was a TW dr in ED, what was the trust policy on tw in women's CR.
JR - what did IB tell you
ED - that Beth was a TW and had the right to use the women's CR, then I went and looked at the Blink system
JR - what policy did you look at
ED - not certain
JR - can I take you to the Equality Diversity and Human Rights Policy, is that the policy that
you looked at that day?
ED - yes
JR - read the 4th bullet point, do you remember reading it that day
ED - I read the whole policy that day
JR - spoke to IB around 9 am, then you looked at this policy after you spoke to IB, when was that
ED - It was so long ago, I don't remember
but I was on non-clinical time that morning so it would have been that morning.
JR - what else were you doing
ED - I was looking to see if there was anything directly relating to transgender, to see if there was anything written locally that would help me come to a decision

It also seems that ED did a lot of independent research so what’s the point if having an EDI lead who cannot give you chapter and verse of the relevant policies

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:33

@SternJoyousBee sorry for second message. Couldn't resist. No as far as below ED didn't tell IB a staff member felt uncomfortable ED being Sandie's line manager.

ED -Thought about the CR, I had seen Beth a fair amount in a prev role in psychiatry but I hadn't thought about it. SP told me that she was uncomfortable. I didn't know what the Trust's policy was and I would follow up. ..
JR - before we get there what did you say to SP
ED - I said I would look into it, I don't want anyone feeling uncomfortable, I felt empathetic to her
JR - you said that you did something that day, you contacted the ED manager, who was that
ED - Isla Bumber (sp), IB,
JR - when did you contact her
ED - after she was in the
office, not everyone starts at 7:30.
JR - what time did you talk with SP
ED - 7:40 or so, then got in touch with IB as soon as I could
JR - what did you say to IB
ED - I explained that there was a TW dr in ED, what was the trust policy on tw in women's CR.
JR - what did IB tell you
ED - that Beth was a TW and had the right to use the women's CR

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:34

Ooops @SternJoyousBee yeah this is a shit show isn't it...

Edit: NHS Fife that is!

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 22:34

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:25

@SternJoyousBee different managers I think, Esther Davidson (ED) was Sandie's line manager who she went to about her issue.

Dr Upton asked Kate Searle the A&E consultant if could use changing room (after already using it ..)

I entirely agree I would want context. Remember this seems to be IB first professional job...I could see it being the sort of thing a new naive graduate might not do...

If you find anything useful please let me know as Feb was some time ago and this all resembles the spaghetti junction of reporting structures!

But as well all keep saying, why was a "new naive graduate" in their "first professional job" hired as Equality and Human Rights Lead, on 50k?

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:45

DuesToTheDirt · 17/07/2025 22:34

But as well all keep saying, why was a "new naive graduate" in their "first professional job" hired as Equality and Human Rights Lead, on 50k?

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Yes I agree it's mad, I can't see what experience she could have to warrant being a lead. Her job, under a HR type manager perhaps, for 25-30k.

I am also not entirely sure what she actually did or what training she got - she obviously doesn't bother i.e. keeping decent records.

And seems never to have spoken to a lawyer or known when to speak to a lawyer in her life.

I didn't get the impression she was lying yesterday though. She didn't come across as badly as I expected, though I know others here would disagree, although she didn't do what most of us on here would.

I.e. someone calling up to ask if transgender could use changing room most would ask if it was i.e. a new joiner so she could i.e. offer support.

I presume that's the sort of thing she advises on, how to support staff with any protected characteristics, but I genuinely have got no clue from her testimony!

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 22:54

OhBuggerandArse · 17/07/2025 20:27

Oh my goodness! Webberley praising his 'elegance, bravery and resolution... If you want to reach out, I’m here.'

Anyone else remember George Galloway telling Saddam Hussein 'Sir, I salute your courage, your strength, your indefatigability, and I want you to know that we are with you'!!

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Oh God that loon..I saw him on Piers Morgan last week. Utterly deranged. Just like webberley I guess.

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 22:58

ForrinMummy · 17/07/2025 20:32

Saddam Hussein and George Galloway. There’s a blast from the past! I had forgotten that quote, I bet George Galloway wishes the whole world had!

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He'd probably repeat it today
He was banging on about Iran being the heros.of.rhe world a few days ago
Sorry to derail but I hadn't seen Galloway for a while and hadn't realised he was even more unhinged than before

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