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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30

1000 replies

nauticant · 17/07/2025 15:39

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28
Thread 29: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Bannedontherun · 17/07/2025 21:33

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 21:26

Could somebody clarify ?

Naomi is doing this case pro bono.
What would the 'fairy godmother' be about
bearing in mind that this case long predated JKR's promise ?

How do you know it is pro bono? Where are the funds for the junior, the tech examining all the disclosure e files, the forensic expert reading the phone, and the stenographer'?

not to mention the risk of a costs award.

NHS fifes fees costs are above 220K

that does not add up as likely, even if that was originally the case, not possible it is now.

KnottyAuty · 17/07/2025 21:33

Impressions from today’ watching:

The disciplinary process was somehow something they all were talking about and simultaneously a hot potato that no one wanted to be involved in. Lots of buck-passing…

GM today seemed more convincing than IB yesterday because she was prepared to agree with obviously sensible questions. And appeared baffled when asked (maybe 1st or 2nd question put to her) if she knew what her own sex was?!

GM was lured into repeatedly talking about the process and then caught in NC’s traps.

  • It was the risk assessment (by others) that led to SP’s suspension. All proper process - nothing to see here …. oh dear …. it looks like the risk assessment was prepopulated and pre-dated SP’s interview. That shouldn’t have happened.
  • Confidentiality a very very important part of the process. Very important! SP was sent a standard letter to remind her not to talk to anyone about the case….. oh dear …. It was sent to SP 7 months after the incident - bit late …. Oh dear…. no such letter was sent to Upton…. Oh dear ….. Dr Searle emailed 20 colleagues condemning Sandie’s behaviour 5 days after the incident (before an investigation started) and Upton’s emailed his witness statement to key witnesses asking for their comments thereby compromising everyone’s integrity…. That shouldn’t have happened.
  • Sandie’s behaviour was the problem and on multiple events and we all agreed she harassed Upton and referred to Isla Bryson and chromosomes - what an awful woman! ….oh dear ….. we got the whole take from Upton and didnt bother to ask Sandie… [and we remain unaware of the Tribunal part 1 where Upton downplayed all this under oath admitting it was all exaggerated/didn’t happen so don’t realise how ridiculous we sound perpetuating claims that Upton himself has effectively withdrawn….].
  • Also she said using discriminatory language was a disciplinary offence - while simultaneously misgendering Upton and admitting it was clear he was male.

I would summarise her evidence as “it wasnae me - a big boy did it an’ ran away”.

The managers joined in on a pile-on where they all collectively decided that Sandie was the problem and they made it all up as they went along instead of following proper policy.

Towards the end the Judge and panel members asked pointed questions. My recollection was that they wanted to know about who was responsible since GM wasnt responsible for anything at all gov! Goodness knows how they’re retaining all this information - the bundle is 2 huge lever arch files plus the hearing notes.

After 2 days it seems fairly clear to me from the evidence so far - NHS Fife have failed on process/procedure. Firstly they allowed Upton’s to use the CR without even considering women’s rights so enabled his sex discrimination of female staff as well as their own discrimination against the women. Following on from that there are clear detriments to Peggie including multiple ongoing suspensions, defamation via Dr Searle’s email, hostile work environment etc etc. They also completely failed to run a fair disciplinary process. JR doesn’t seem to have any defence - it’s all damage limitation at this point. They have been well and truly “Fife’d” and we are only 2 days into part 2. What else can come up?

Jaws2025 · 17/07/2025 21:34

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:24

I have spent all day sitting on my arse following this thread…so take your pick 😉

Edited

Sorry I thought you were judging us arse sitters, not joining us! 😂

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 21:35

spannasaurus · 17/07/2025 21:19

I do wonder how many other Sandie Peggies there have been who haven't had any backing to fight back

Absolutely plus the women who'd avoid using the changing room (getting changed in toilets etc).
I don't believe everyone else was happy stripping off with Theo Upton in the room.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:37

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:02

@DuesToTheDirt yes certainly NHS Fife are going to have to sort changing room facilities.

Sandie has been cleared of misconduct by the Board which was no doubt one motivation for bringing the case.

However. Sandie's claims are sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation.

I.e. Was allowing Dr. Upton's presence in the changing room sexual harassment, legally? I guess that's what we will see.

Might sound odd but I am not sure it matters at this point if she wins against all her claims.

I am hoping the fact that they didn’t even attempt to balance Sandie’s rights against what they thought were Upton’s provides the panel with at least one reason to rule on Sandie’s behalf. No one appears to even have thought that Sandie had any rights that needed to be protected.

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 21:38

Just to check, did the entire confrontation with Dr Upton happen when Peggie was standing waiting to deal with a menstrual flood, or was there another verbal exchange at a different time?

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:40

BezMills · 17/07/2025 21:11

Shifty look

I was serving my community! Je nae regrette eh hen.

Je ne dinae ken pas

Largesso · 17/07/2025 21:42

Listening to Foran’s excellent summary of today’s proceedings which fills in a lot of the logic gaps that can’t be parsed effectively from TT if you aren’t also studying the bundle and keeping abreast of dates and comms, as he is so admirably doing.

I’m struck by the decision to not call Jamie Doyle as a witness as all the implications are that he was pushing for SP suspension. Why is the man behind the decision being kept away from the tribunal? Is he another one being protected?

I hope the panel take lots of the allowed inference from his absence and the lack of his testimony.

lady69 · 17/07/2025 21:43

Apols if this has already been posted but… i want it to be real 🤣

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #30
KnottyAuty · 17/07/2025 21:44

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 21:35

Absolutely plus the women who'd avoid using the changing room (getting changed in toilets etc).
I don't believe everyone else was happy stripping off with Theo Upton in the room.

We know that Upton’s kept notes on other staff who quietly objected/avoided. It was only Sandie who spoke up

anyolddinosaur · 17/07/2025 21:46

@Talkinpeace Naomi has taken a short case pro bono - But I've not seen anything to suggest this is pro bono. It's a long case, I wouldnt expect it to be pro bono and I wonder why you think that.

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 21:47

lady69 · 17/07/2025 21:43

Apols if this has already been posted but… i want it to be real 🤣

😂😆

That's too funny 😁 😂 I'd been thinking Bumbling like bumbling fool 🤣

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:48

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:37

I am hoping the fact that they didn’t even attempt to balance Sandie’s rights against what they thought were Upton’s provides the panel with at least one reason to rule on Sandie’s behalf. No one appears to even have thought that Sandie had any rights that needed to be protected.

Hope so too. It seemed to me key as well that when Sandie's manager went to IB about the changing room she didn't tell her that there was a staff member upset and uncomfortable who had raised it with her. IB even said yesterday that anyone who was uncomfortable should talk to their manager, which obviously she did!

All this "advice" wasn't complete. And anyway, doesn't remove their responsibility to protect Sandie from harassment. Which I would argue is of a sexual nature but I have no idea how that works legally - i.e. nothing to suggest Dr. Upton a voyeur. There's been a few lines of questioning along the sexual lines.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 21:50

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:40

Je ne dinae ken pas

A can see we've another Fifecais speaker. Ça Markinch?

Je ye souhaite a bonnie soirée an that alors

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 21:50

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 21:32

To do what ?
I've been through an ET.
I paid my solicitor and costed up barristers.

NC is pro bono.
Solicitors work is 99% done and 5% of barristers normally

Oh for a pro bono solicitor or barrister. Mine cost I think about £1600/ hour for my tribunal.

But then my legal fees were £125 000, so at some point it just became like monopoly money!!

Olderbadger1 · 17/07/2025 21:50

Naomi's painstaking questioning of witnesses who continue to pretend that words mean anything and nothing, that up is down, and bollocks are a girl's best friend has been cheering on so many counts. Not least because I had started to feel utterly inadequate in trying to make the GC case against handmaidens and passing TRAs. I thought it was my post-menopausal brain fog, lack of coherence, lack of intellect. Listening to Naomi I have realised that you can be utterly on top of your brief and entirely brilliant, but still unable to shake these true believers. They lack all capacity for rational thought. So it's not me whot's thick. It's them!

The aim of totalitarian education has never been to instill convictions but to destroy the capacity to form any.
Hannah Arendt

PS And you lot have been awesome today, especially the Fifers. Thanks all round.✊🙏💚💜

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 21:50

Largesso · 17/07/2025 21:42

Listening to Foran’s excellent summary of today’s proceedings which fills in a lot of the logic gaps that can’t be parsed effectively from TT if you aren’t also studying the bundle and keeping abreast of dates and comms, as he is so admirably doing.

I’m struck by the decision to not call Jamie Doyle as a witness as all the implications are that he was pushing for SP suspension. Why is the man behind the decision being kept away from the tribunal? Is he another one being protected?

I hope the panel take lots of the allowed inference from his absence and the lack of his testimony.

Where did you listen please?

Needspaceforlego · 17/07/2025 21:51

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:48

Hope so too. It seemed to me key as well that when Sandie's manager went to IB about the changing room she didn't tell her that there was a staff member upset and uncomfortable who had raised it with her. IB even said yesterday that anyone who was uncomfortable should talk to their manager, which obviously she did!

All this "advice" wasn't complete. And anyway, doesn't remove their responsibility to protect Sandie from harassment. Which I would argue is of a sexual nature but I have no idea how that works legally - i.e. nothing to suggest Dr. Upton a voyeur. There's been a few lines of questioning along the sexual lines.

Protect her from harassment, nope the just put the boot in and suspended her, (I supposed it kept her out Uptons way)

SqueakyDinosaur · 17/07/2025 21:52

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 21:48

Hope so too. It seemed to me key as well that when Sandie's manager went to IB about the changing room she didn't tell her that there was a staff member upset and uncomfortable who had raised it with her. IB even said yesterday that anyone who was uncomfortable should talk to their manager, which obviously she did!

All this "advice" wasn't complete. And anyway, doesn't remove their responsibility to protect Sandie from harassment. Which I would argue is of a sexual nature but I have no idea how that works legally - i.e. nothing to suggest Dr. Upton a voyeur. There's been a few lines of questioning along the sexual lines.

I guess to bring up the sexual element of harrassment you'd have to take a trip to Malaga, and that might be a massive derail. I think NC is just moving through witnesses building the case for discrimination and lack of due process. And from her point of view, and the point of view of terfery in general, I would argue it's more important to expose the level of institutional capture and wilful blindness than it is to show an individual's level of delusion (which I'd say she did pretty spectacularly back in Feb anyway).

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 21:53

FingleGlen · 17/07/2025 21:50

Where did you listen please?

knowingius.org

CarefulN0w · 17/07/2025 21:57

My arse and chair had firm plans for today, but as is often the way, work had other ideas. I’d got halfway through thread 28, abandoned 29 entirely and it had taken me until now to digest this one. I’m very grateful for everyone’s comments and links. And Nauticant for her leadership.

I think I have the gist of today. No one knew anything at all except that SP was a mean old bigot. And nothing was written down, unless it was written down before it happened. And NC remains excellent.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:57

KnottyAuty · 17/07/2025 21:33

Impressions from today’ watching:

The disciplinary process was somehow something they all were talking about and simultaneously a hot potato that no one wanted to be involved in. Lots of buck-passing…

GM today seemed more convincing than IB yesterday because she was prepared to agree with obviously sensible questions. And appeared baffled when asked (maybe 1st or 2nd question put to her) if she knew what her own sex was?!

GM was lured into repeatedly talking about the process and then caught in NC’s traps.

  • It was the risk assessment (by others) that led to SP’s suspension. All proper process - nothing to see here …. oh dear …. it looks like the risk assessment was prepopulated and pre-dated SP’s interview. That shouldn’t have happened.
  • Confidentiality a very very important part of the process. Very important! SP was sent a standard letter to remind her not to talk to anyone about the case….. oh dear …. It was sent to SP 7 months after the incident - bit late …. Oh dear…. no such letter was sent to Upton…. Oh dear ….. Dr Searle emailed 20 colleagues condemning Sandie’s behaviour 5 days after the incident (before an investigation started) and Upton’s emailed his witness statement to key witnesses asking for their comments thereby compromising everyone’s integrity…. That shouldn’t have happened.
  • Sandie’s behaviour was the problem and on multiple events and we all agreed she harassed Upton and referred to Isla Bryson and chromosomes - what an awful woman! ….oh dear ….. we got the whole take from Upton and didnt bother to ask Sandie… [and we remain unaware of the Tribunal part 1 where Upton downplayed all this under oath admitting it was all exaggerated/didn’t happen so don’t realise how ridiculous we sound perpetuating claims that Upton himself has effectively withdrawn….].
  • Also she said using discriminatory language was a disciplinary offence - while simultaneously misgendering Upton and admitting it was clear he was male.

I would summarise her evidence as “it wasnae me - a big boy did it an’ ran away”.

The managers joined in on a pile-on where they all collectively decided that Sandie was the problem and they made it all up as they went along instead of following proper policy.

Towards the end the Judge and panel members asked pointed questions. My recollection was that they wanted to know about who was responsible since GM wasnt responsible for anything at all gov! Goodness knows how they’re retaining all this information - the bundle is 2 huge lever arch files plus the hearing notes.

After 2 days it seems fairly clear to me from the evidence so far - NHS Fife have failed on process/procedure. Firstly they allowed Upton’s to use the CR without even considering women’s rights so enabled his sex discrimination of female staff as well as their own discrimination against the women. Following on from that there are clear detriments to Peggie including multiple ongoing suspensions, defamation via Dr Searle’s email, hostile work environment etc etc. They also completely failed to run a fair disciplinary process. JR doesn’t seem to have any defence - it’s all damage limitation at this point. They have been well and truly “Fife’d” and we are only 2 days into part 2. What else can come up?

Thanks Knotty.

Fantastic summary. I’m just following via TT and this thread but it did strike me that GM seemed very focused on the process and to some extent IB too with her “we followed statutory guidelines”. But it’s clear that the process either wasn’t followed or the process isn’t fit for purpose.

And even though I am a personal fan of process, without common sense and and a full and proper understanding of the policies behind the process you end up with the clusterfuck that appears to be the discipline case against Sandie. I used to work in the public sector and was involved in complaints and discipline with little to no involvement from SMEs and badly written policies. I wasn’t an investigating officer or deciding officer but used as the person to manage the processes when my boss has ti be a DO or appeals officer. So I have some sympathy with ED for being thrown in at the deep end but have no sympathy for the people who chose to ignore the advice of the HR rep. That alone makes me think they were reverse engineering the discipline case rather than running an impartial investigation.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 21:59

Jaws2025 · 17/07/2025 21:34

Sorry I thought you were judging us arse sitters, not joining us! 😂

I’m hurt that you have not noticed my one liners peppered thru the last couple of threads 😢

🤣🤣🤣

BeLemonNow · 17/07/2025 22:00

@SqueakyDinosaur NC was getting into it to some degree today. I.e. asking if putting a camera in there was sexual harassment (y) asking if a bloke who just said he was female would be (y) and how is that different to Dr. Upton (it just is). It was a wonderful demonstration of Doublethink.

NC seems to be making good headway on the victimisation with these negative emails being sent round, the suspension, the return saying Sandie could not say anything to her colleagues etc. etc, that nothing Sandie could have said to Dr. Upton seems to have been appropriate. They've really dug their own hole, NHS Fife.

Talkinpeace · 17/07/2025 22:00

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 21:50

Oh for a pro bono solicitor or barrister. Mine cost I think about £1600/ hour for my tribunal.

But then my legal fees were £125 000, so at some point it just became like monopoly money!!

I had to self fund so had to settle

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