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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #9

1000 replies

nauticant · 10/02/2025 12:57

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and is expected to continue for 2 weeks. The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton started giving evidence on Thursday 6 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely can be obtained by sending an email request to [email protected] headed Public Access Request (Peggie v Fife Health Board) 4104864/2024 and requesting access.

The hearing is being live tweeted by https://x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.is/xkSxy.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: https://nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8

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8
eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 15:31

SpinUp2 · 10/02/2025 15:29

I have the link and pin.
Just getting a blank screen.
Should I be selecting Video & audio then allowing access to microphone and camera?

turn your mic off, and then turn off your self image on screen

Chrysanthemum5 · 10/02/2025 15:31

Surely the point is that he was using the female facilities before he asked permission so he didn't wait to be authorised.

As I've said before he was looking for a fight if it hadn't been sandie it would have been someone else

mzdemeanour · 10/02/2025 15:31

If this wasn't so serious, I'd be howling with laughter - as it is I'm almost crying at the sheer ludicrousness of a medical doctor stating the absolute shite he has has come out with and the persecution of a nurse who did nothing more than try to stand up for the right of a woman to have dignity and privacy in the face of gender ideology

KnottyAuty · 10/02/2025 15:31

ArabellaScott · Today 12:56
NC - you're not a 'cis' woman, you're someone who has a biological [missed]
BU - the term biologically female is nebulous, no defined meaning in science, I'm not a robot, I am biological, I am biologically female.

This is excrutiating to watch but it is making sure all the angles of this debate are going to be properly dissected. DU's faith is so strong (I'd say indocrinated but that seems pejorative but I can't find a more positive synonym). DU is so informed/good at making their case they are putting it all out there.

Which means all the debate is now on court record - rather than fluff out on the internet. Maybe this case will also lay the groundwork for AI and all the digital craziness to come too... It certainly can't now leave it at "be kind" if we are into the realm of robots!

I've missed most of today. I was at a hospital appointment. Not a single staff member cracked a smile. Some of them gestured towards rooms and grunted instructions inaudibly. DD felt harrassed. Maybe we should make a formal complaint

Swashbuckled · 10/02/2025 15:32

@Chrysanthemum5

”The wall of sad” 🤣

eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 15:33

mzdemeanour · 10/02/2025 15:31

If this wasn't so serious, I'd be howling with laughter - as it is I'm almost crying at the sheer ludicrousness of a medical doctor stating the absolute shite he has has come out with and the persecution of a nurse who did nothing more than try to stand up for the right of a woman to have dignity and privacy in the face of gender ideology

it is truly absurd, absolutely incredible. Everyone in the room knows he is not a woman as does his wife.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 15:33

Indeed @eulittleb831

RobinEllacotStrike · 10/02/2025 15:33

who wants to be treated by a doctor who has not a clue to tell which sex you are?

Surely only a rogue/failing NHS trust would employ doctors who don't know what sex people are and why knowing this is important?

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 15:34

Too many people online to count, but I'm reckoning it's over 500 today.

murasaki · 10/02/2025 15:34

eulittleb831 · 10/02/2025 15:33

it is truly absurd, absolutely incredible. Everyone in the room knows he is not a woman as does his wife.

This made me think of 'i'm Brian and so is my wife'.

lnks · 10/02/2025 15:35

Will it be the same link for tomorrow or should I email them again?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/02/2025 15:35

Same link @lnks

mzdemeanour · 10/02/2025 15:35

I'm just hoping for a newspaper headline reading 'biological sex is nebulous', claims hospital doctor.

Chrysanthemum5 · 10/02/2025 15:35

Same link every day

CriticalCondition · 10/02/2025 15:35

Mixed emotions I think currently in the support wall of sad. Someone can't stop yawning and sprawling. Others looking rather more pensive.

titchy · 10/02/2025 15:35

This made me think of 'i'm Brian and so is my wife'.

But you haven't got a womb. Where's the baby going to gestate - in a bag?

ThreeWordHarpy · 10/02/2025 15:35

fanOfBen · 10/02/2025 15:34

Too many people online to count, but I'm reckoning it's over 500 today.

As I said earlier today, somewhat contradicts previous claims about the system capacity from other hearings.

hollyblueivy · 10/02/2025 15:36

Had DU been working all this time and SP been suspended? If so, does DU still use the women's changing rooms?

Brainworm · 10/02/2025 15:36

I wonder if the witnesses on behalf of the Trust will uphold the ideological position that sex is a nebulous and complex construct, or if they'll claim not to be able to comment as they aren't medically qualified.

I don't know why people don't point out that over 90% of the population are fertile during a period of their lives and those who aren't, the reasons for their infertility are never that their sex is too difficult to determine.

Signalbox · 10/02/2025 15:37

If sex is so nebulous how does DU know he is a TW. It’s all so confusing. I wonder if the judges can make head or tail of it?

murasaki · 10/02/2025 15:37

We could really do with Sonia Sodha writing a nice clear daily precis. The article on Sunday was great.

KnottyAuty · 10/02/2025 15:37

Chrysanthemum5 · 10/02/2025 15:29

They ignited SP because that is easier than dealing with a TRA. They hoped Sandie would just put up with it but they didn't count on the resilience and fight in a Scottish working class woman

This whole trial is clearly evidence of that.
Even a skilled and experienced barrister is having to work hard with his slipperiness answering questions. SP was the easy option. Just like the rest of us girls - why would didn't SP make a formal complaint? because she had over her lifetime already been ignored or mistreated by higher authorities than her and it had done no good. DU said they didn't want to cause a fuss - and did just that. But SP had been trained for a life to be a good girl and keep quiet. This is a 100% gendered situation. DU's blind because his formative years were spent living as a male

BonfireLady · 10/02/2025 15:37

I’m presuming that at some point NC will get on to the point that just because DrU sincerely believes they are a woman, thanks to Maya no one else is obliged to believe it too?

This is the key part of the Forstater judgment. Yes, she won on the "gender critical belief" that sex is immutable (similar to how a court would see it as a "globe earth belief" that the earth has been scientifically observed by to be spherical) but the far more relevant part of the win was lack of belief that we all have a gender identity:

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?t=4RdLzr3mCppSOHuNWw3RAw&s=19

Therefore, Upton's stated belief that "I am a biological female" doesn't/shouldn't have any influence over anyone else. Just as nobody can be compelled to accept that the earth is flat, even though some people say it is nobody can be compelled to accept that a male person is a woman, and thus entitled to change in the women's CR.

I wonder if Jane Russell agrees with Ruth Crawford (and therefore presumably the Scottish government) as per the recent FWS case that only males with GRCs can apparently be women. Or whether she agrees with her client that GRC status is irrelevant, and anyone who says they are a woman is one.

I appreciate that everyone is entitled to a defence but enforced belief is being shown up for the utter farce that it is here. It would be funny if it didn't have such serious implications for women's safety and for free speech. 1984 indeed.

x.com

https://x.com/anyabike/status/1749777661855940901?s=19&t=4RdLzr3mCppSOHuNWw3RAw

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