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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 11

1002 replies

ickky · 23/05/2022 16:04

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.
You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)

To come?

Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 11:56

TW sounds annoyed and snippy.

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 24/05/2022 11:56

@ZandathePanda yes that's what any reasonable person would understand "cotton ceiling" to mean.
So far I haven't seen WHAT everyone at GCC and the Bar Council think it means (though we know that they damn well know what it means) - has anyone else seen any of them give their own definition? But they've all denied that it means what we all know it means!

Datun · 24/05/2022 11:57

How would she feel if she found a workshop by gay men called 'overcoming the male heterosexual reluctance to sleep with gay men'?

Would she say straight men were discriminatory for not sleeping with gays?

She is vice chair of the bar councils ethics committee.

For fuck's sake.

Signalbox · 24/05/2022 11:57

What's that word he's using visiate or ficiate? (I'm not familiar with it and can't find it in dictionary)

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 11:57

He expressed the view that what?

Wainwright points out that the CPS said it would not be appropriate to prosecute a trans person with a gender recognition certificate if they deceived a sexual partner about their biological sex. That’s the legal argument (not his, he says).

funnelfanjo · 24/05/2022 11:57

Mr Wainwright's answers are a bit snippy. He doesn't look happy to be there at all.

Pyjamagame · 24/05/2022 11:57

The dismissiveness imbued in that 'yes'

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 11:58

Vitiate.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 11:58

"A need to educate the judiciary RE trans issues"

Apparently this isn't for trans self-id.

Signalbox · 24/05/2022 11:58

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 11:58

Vitiate.

Thanks :)

chilling19 · 24/05/2022 11:58

Dearie me 😩

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 11:58

He is coming across as incredibly snippy and rude.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 24/05/2022 11:59

And of course it's not just lesbians, its all women everywhere, who have the right to say whether they want a penis anywhere near them or not.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/05/2022 11:59

BC - You wanted to engage and educate the Judiciary to agree with Self ID?

Mmmnotsure · 24/05/2022 11:59

TW appears angry, aggressive and rude. Why?

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 12:00

We could guess why he’s so rude, but the ET will draw its own conclusions. Hostility coming off him in waves.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 12:01

TW replies to: It's disappointing to see someone in GCC chambers (AB) erasing trans human rights".

TW response: I agree. Human rights are for everyone.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 12:01

Can we call this guy Pinocchio instead?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/05/2022 12:01

Is it me, or is he not making any sense?

He's just rambling...

katmarie · 24/05/2022 12:02

WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles · 24/05/2022 11:59

And of course it's not just lesbians, its all women everywhere, who have the right to say whether they want a penis anywhere near them or not.

It is staggering that this needs saying. But it does.

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 12:02

He’s telling porkies.

Penguintears · 24/05/2022 12:02

katmarie · 24/05/2022 11:53

BC catches TW in a lie right out of the gate?

I missed it what was the lie?

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 24/05/2022 12:02

'Whatever it is'???? Come now Mr Wainwright.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 12:02

TW is tying himself into knots already, and it's not even lunch time!!

Clymene · 24/05/2022 12:02

He's basically said that LGB Alliance is taking away trans rights.

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