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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 11

1002 replies

ickky · 23/05/2022 16:04

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.
You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)

To come?

Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Birdsweepsin · 24/05/2022 10:32

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 24/05/2022 10:31

I literally cannot believe what I'm hearing from CM re South African apartheid's treatment of Black ppl being the same as lesbians' refusal to have sex with males 😳

Not completely new. Gets trotted out a lot by people like Helen Belcher during training sessions for Liberal Democrats.

Penguintears · 24/05/2022 10:32

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 24/05/2022 10:31

I literally cannot believe what I'm hearing from CM re South African apartheid's treatment of Black ppl being the same as lesbians' refusal to have sex with males 😳

It's shocking isn't it. And very revealing of underlying bias and prejudice.

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 10:33

‘CM is focussing purely on the areas she was asked her opinion on, and refuses to stray outside those areas.’

She is pretending to do that, but her conclusions are actually based on an ideological position: that there is nothing coercive about strategising to ‘overcome’ the ‘biases’ of female people who are exclusively attracted to other female people.

One of the most insidious things about this movement is its pretence towards objectivity.

ickky · 24/05/2022 10:33

JFC I bet poor AB's head is exploding right about now.

OP posts:
User237845 · 24/05/2022 10:33

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 10:31

‘Overcoming the cotton ceiling’ DOES imply that the barriers are discriminatory. Just as the barriers to female progression in industries are based on discrimination.

Absolutely. THis is the point BC's been trying to make for about 10 minutes and Cathryn-high-flying-lawyer seemingly can't understand.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 10:33

katmarie · 24/05/2022 10:32

So lesbians not wanting to sleep with men is analagous to whites not wanting to integrate with black people in south africa? That is fucking offensive on about a million levels.

It's disgusting homophobia and racism.

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 24/05/2022 10:33

I'm so glad I'm muted. I have been yelling, "you homophobic bigot" repeatedly. Although maybe accidentally unmuting myself to get that heard would add some context.

nauticant · 24/05/2022 10:34

Actually I don't think CM believes what she's arguing but she being a barrister rather than a witness and in her mind she's viewing the matter as being very narrow and related to the questions she was asked by GCC.

It's just that her justifications and explanations of this make her look bonkers.

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 24/05/2022 10:34

Sunlight. Beautiful, precious sunlight.

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/05/2022 10:34

CM - I can't remember if she used the word 'men'.

AB deliberately used the word 'male bodied' to describe MP, didn't she?

Penguintears · 24/05/2022 10:34

She's now saying that the workshop didn't literally coerce lesbians into sex. Completely misses the point.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 24/05/2022 10:34

And strategises ways to overcome the sexual barriers identified, ffs! That's the whole bloody point!

FacebookPhotos · 24/05/2022 10:35

I'm so glad I'm muted. I have been yelling, "you homophobic bigot" repeatedly.

Me too. Linking apartheid to same-sex attraction is homophobic. And she does it repeatedly.

katmarie · 24/05/2022 10:35

I am agog, oh we're back to South Africa again.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 10:35

Oh god she's going back to South Africa.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 24/05/2022 10:35

Why why are we back in South Africa AGAIN??

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 10:35

‘strategies for overcoming’ is the phrase she is absolutely determined to ignore.

Now she’s banging on about the World Cup.

What is the World Cup in her analogy?

Ameanstreakamilewide · 24/05/2022 10:35

The World Cup...again. 🥱

nauticant · 24/05/2022 10:35

Ahh, funnelfanjo said it better.

Signalbox · 24/05/2022 10:35

Lesbians not wanting to sleep men is fear.

Mrskettleson · 24/05/2022 10:35

.

Penguintears · 24/05/2022 10:36

She says transphobia is fear.

tabbycatstripy · 24/05/2022 10:36

‘Transwomen are female...’

Fucking hell.

Gabcsika · 24/05/2022 10:36

"Trans women, feel female, are female, whatever".

HAHAAHAHAHAHAA!

funnelfanjo · 24/05/2022 10:36

This is all over the place, lesbians not wanting to have sex with male bodied men is not transphobia, it is homosexuality!

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