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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing Thread 19

738 replies

ickky · 26/09/2022 17:24

Allison Bailey has tweeted her intention to appeal the Stonewall decision.

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1572133035335716865

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/allison-bailey-vs-stonewall-and-garden

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?
Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2
Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3
Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4
Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5
Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6
Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7
Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8
Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9
Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10
Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11
Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12
Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13
Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14
Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15
Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16
Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17
Thread 18 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4574654-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-18

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf
Supplementary Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf
Closing Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

The Reserved Judgement (forth one down)

www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/ms-a-bailey-v-stonewall-equality-ltd-and-others-2202172-slash-2020

OP posts:
Thread gallery
20
SidewaysOtter · 15/05/2024 13:28

Propertylover · 15/05/2024 12:15

@GoodHeavens99 I was surprised to see them tweet they were part time Civil Service. https://x.com/moira_robin/status/1790064402772668836?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

I’ve also noticed a concerted effort to dismiss Cass whilst remaining silent on Jo Phoenix. Whilst they tried to dismiss Rachel Meade’s win as being limited, again silence on the damages awarded particularly the training aspect.

No small talent for disregarding the disagreeable seems to be a recurring theme with Gender Woo.

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 15/05/2024 13:20

Snowypeaks · 15/05/2024 11:25

The second is a group for trans people with dogs to access free dog training.

Eh? Why?

It is difficult to train a dog to recognise your pronouns and to ignore your sex?

WallaceinAnderland · 15/05/2024 12:49

Kirrin is a queer, trans and neurodiverse person

All humans are neurodiverse. Does he mean neurodivergent? Bit of an awkward mistake if so.

Keeprejoining · 15/05/2024 12:39

Mmmnotsure · 15/05/2024 11:21

"Kirrin MedcalfThey/He

Kirrin is a queer, trans and neurodiverse person currently living in London with their assistance dog in-training Nettle. Kirrin has previously worked in LGBTQIA+ advocacy and trans rights organising, having worked with Galop, Gendered Intelligence, Stonewall, Bar Woteva, and GIRES. They are currently working on two projects. The first focuses on exploring and improving trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples experiences of end-of-life care and after-death services. The second is a group for trans people with dogs to access free dog training. He currently works as the Head of Facilitation at NEON where he designs and runs training programmes teaching people how to facilitate using anti-oppressive methods. In Kirrin & Nettle’s free time they compete in the sport of canine agility, and are learning how to be a human remains detection team to help reunite remains with the friends and family searching for them."

Presumably any remains that might be found would be immediately identifiable as to, you know, biological sex.

It's a massive fucking grift. Paid for by taxpayers and donations to charities.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 12:28

I've been down the rabbit hole of cadaver dog training now. There are some artificial products available but traditionally they are trained on real human blood, bone, hair, teeth and human tissue. While your friendly dentist or hairdresser may be able to help out with some of these, and apparently human bone is readily available on the internet, there are obvious issues with legally obtaining human tissue.

lcakethereforeIam · 15/05/2024 12:25

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 11:32

So KM is planning to hire themself out to the police to search for missing dead people? Or just advertise the service on Facebook with a lovely pic of their dog?

How does KM propose to cope with the stress of actually finding 'human remains'? I should imagine it's a pretty traumatic experience for anyone, even the most emotionally sturdy.

Do the poor relatives know that the team tramping through the woods following the scent trail may also include KM's mum and an emotional support person?

The mind boggles.

'We're going on a corpse hunt.' 😃

Fair play to KM though, that seems a very worthy endeavour.

Thanks to everyone for your posts.

GoodHeavens99 · 15/05/2024 12:22

Unsurprisingly, they have blocked me on Twitter, so I can't read that post, unfortunately.
But, i get the gist.

RMW appeared on GB News Free Speech Nation and attempted to discredit the Cass Report, and defend the WPATH files.

I mean, you have to get up pretty early in the morning to outwit Andrew Doyle.
And let me tell you, RMW doesn't succeed.

Propertylover · 15/05/2024 12:15

@GoodHeavens99 I was surprised to see them tweet they were part time Civil Service. https://x.com/moira_robin/status/1790064402772668836?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

I’ve also noticed a concerted effort to dismiss Cass whilst remaining silent on Jo Phoenix. Whilst they tried to dismiss Rachel Meade’s win as being limited, again silence on the damages awarded particularly the training aspect.

https://x.com/moira_robin/status/1790064402772668836?s=61&t=W8z-NdrPTYy21FuiQuezcw

AnotherAngryAcademic · 15/05/2024 12:12

Yes, I know - that’s why I’m so concerned about what’s happened. Or potentially concerned I suppose, since those who have been affected can’t share all the details publicly. (Yet?)

SpinCityBlue · 15/05/2024 12:10

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 11:32

So KM is planning to hire themself out to the police to search for missing dead people? Or just advertise the service on Facebook with a lovely pic of their dog?

How does KM propose to cope with the stress of actually finding 'human remains'? I should imagine it's a pretty traumatic experience for anyone, even the most emotionally sturdy.

Do the poor relatives know that the team tramping through the woods following the scent trail may also include KM's mum and an emotional support person?

The mind boggles.

I have visions now of George, Timmy the dog, and Fanny and Quentin Kirrin traipsing along behind in the woods.

It's about as believable.

SpinCityBlue · 15/05/2024 12:07

AnotherAngryAcademic · 15/05/2024 11:57

Can anyone who attended give an update on what (if anything) has been said as justification for sharing the personal details of those who attended remotely?

(I did not request remote access on this occasion, but have been out off doing so in future if it means my medical history - the reason for not attending in person - is circulated to a list of people without my prior knowledge or consent.)

Medical data is special category data, I understand.

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/special-category-data/what-is-special-category-data/#:~:text=If%20you%20carry%20out%20any,Article%209%20condition%20for%20processing.

What is special category data?

https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/uk-gdpr-guidance-and-resources/lawful-basis/special-category-data/what-is-special-category-data#:~:text=If%20you%20carry%20out%20any,Article%209%20condition%20for%20processing.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 15/05/2024 12:04

AnotherAngryAcademic · 15/05/2024 11:57

Can anyone who attended give an update on what (if anything) has been said as justification for sharing the personal details of those who attended remotely?

(I did not request remote access on this occasion, but have been out off doing so in future if it means my medical history - the reason for not attending in person - is circulated to a list of people without my prior knowledge or consent.)

Nothing as far as I am aware.

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 15/05/2024 12:04

exploring and improving trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples experiences of end-of-life care and after-death services

Um, does this mean supporting the people doing the dying or the people grieving? Because I'm wondering what anyone's experience of an after-death service is once they're dead. I can only assume it's to do with recording of information on death certificates.

GoodHeavens99 · 15/05/2024 12:01

Kirrin's Mum should have told them 'no' once in a while.

OligoN · 15/05/2024 12:01

Snowypeaks · 15/05/2024 11:25

The second is a group for trans people with dogs to access free dog training.

Eh? Why?

It’s griftable, presumably?

BettyBooper · 15/05/2024 12:00

nauticant · 15/05/2024 11:56

A sensible average estimate is 3 months BettyBooper. But since this is an appeal on one issue and much of the evidence doesn't need to be reviewed I'm hoping less.

Thanks! Much appreciated.

AnotherAngryAcademic · 15/05/2024 11:57

Can anyone who attended give an update on what (if anything) has been said as justification for sharing the personal details of those who attended remotely?

(I did not request remote access on this occasion, but have been out off doing so in future if it means my medical history - the reason for not attending in person - is circulated to a list of people without my prior knowledge or consent.)

nauticant · 15/05/2024 11:56

A sensible average estimate is 3 months BettyBooper. But since this is an appeal on one issue and much of the evidence doesn't need to be reviewed I'm hoping less.

GoodHeavens99 · 15/05/2024 11:53

Snowypeaks · 15/05/2024 11:48

The reducing or minimising approach - I don't know what to call it in legal jargon - seems a feature of the TRA lawyers' arguments. Don't look at this, interpret that as narrowly as possible, etc. Has anyone else had that impression?

That's RMW's approach to the law.

His misinterpretation of it never fails to concern me.

BettyBooper · 15/05/2024 11:53

How long do Judges usually take to make a decision?

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 15/05/2024 11:52

Ah that makes sense CriticalCondition. That hadn't even occurred to me.

ResisterRex · 15/05/2024 11:49

Mmmnotsure · 15/05/2024 11:21

"Kirrin MedcalfThey/He

Kirrin is a queer, trans and neurodiverse person currently living in London with their assistance dog in-training Nettle. Kirrin has previously worked in LGBTQIA+ advocacy and trans rights organising, having worked with Galop, Gendered Intelligence, Stonewall, Bar Woteva, and GIRES. They are currently working on two projects. The first focuses on exploring and improving trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples experiences of end-of-life care and after-death services. The second is a group for trans people with dogs to access free dog training. He currently works as the Head of Facilitation at NEON where he designs and runs training programmes teaching people how to facilitate using anti-oppressive methods. In Kirrin & Nettle’s free time they compete in the sport of canine agility, and are learning how to be a human remains detection team to help reunite remains with the friends and family searching for them."

Presumably any remains that might be found would be immediately identifiable as to, you know, biological sex.

When you flip the thread to catch the latest Shock

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 11:49

IdisagreeMrHochhauser · 15/05/2024 11:40

What's this "below" the barristers keep referring to? Do they mean their written submissions? It's always below and never above. Sounds like some legal chasm under the court.

It usually refers to the court 'below', in this case the hearing before the ET.

LipbalmOrKnickers · 15/05/2024 11:48

Thanks very much as always vipers for the commentary, the community and the silliness, let's hope Allison gets the result she deserves. 💕

Snowypeaks · 15/05/2024 11:48

The reducing or minimising approach - I don't know what to call it in legal jargon - seems a feature of the TRA lawyers' arguments. Don't look at this, interpret that as narrowly as possible, etc. Has anyone else had that impression?