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Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Appeal Tribunal hearing Thread 19

738 replies

ickky · 26/09/2022 17:24

Allison Bailey has tweeted her intention to appeal the Stonewall decision.

twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1572133035335716865

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/allison-bailey-vs-stonewall-and-garden

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?
Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2
Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3
Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4
Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5
Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6
Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7
Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8
Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9
Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10
Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11
Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12
Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13
Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14
Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15
Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16
Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17
Thread 18 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4574654-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-18

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)

Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf
Supplementary Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf
Closing Statement
allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

The Reserved Judgement (forth one down)

www.gov.uk/employment-tribunal-decisions/ms-a-bailey-v-stonewall-equality-ltd-and-others-2202172-slash-2020

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20
NoBinturongsHereMate · 16/05/2024 14:21

Might be a bit quicker for this, as it was quite a tightly-defined point they were arguing.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 16/05/2024 14:20

They didn't say, but it's usually months rather than weeks.

lonelywater · 16/05/2024 14:06

any idea when the judgement will be delivered?

fiftypercentoff · 16/05/2024 12:43

Good luck to Alison. She didn't need to pursue an appeal having won against GCC, but the consequences for Stonewall if she wins will be massive and benefit all women and girls. What a woman she is

Citrusandginger · 15/05/2024 22:12

Thank you everyone for these threads. It always seems to take me such a long time to catch up, but I do enjoy reading your comments.

Fingers crossed that the right outcome will be delivered.

GCITC · 15/05/2024 20:43

I pay a rather large amount of money for a meet and greet with Ben and Peter. What a team!

JollyJanuary · 15/05/2024 20:21

I hope Nettle is happy.
Lovely pic of Allison with BC and PD https://twitter.com/BluskyeAllison/status/1790748253069197323?t=iTdqu-kOFGF0bKH1WKZIFw&s=19

Edit - So sorry - realise photo has already been posted.

HarpQuartet · 15/05/2024 20:04

Just popping in to say a big thank you to everyone filling us in and explaining things 💐

BritishBeatleMania · 15/05/2024 19:47

and we often used the phrase “belt and braces” in legal circles to say that we were putting things in place to make sure things wouldn’t fall down on a case!

WookeyHole · 15/05/2024 19:39

Boombatty · 15/05/2024 18:50

In England suspenders are the old fashioned straps to hold up tights before they became elasticated. A very different thing!

Thank you, I just couldn't remember which term was used which side of the Atlantic 🤦‍♀️

NoBinturongsHereMate · 15/05/2024 19:33

I'm still stuck on the dog finding human remains. Surely the first thing the dog does on finding something like that is try to eat it

A trained cadaver dog will signal by lying down or sitting, in much the same way as drug sniffer dogs. Random passer-by dogs, on the other hand ...

Boombatty · 15/05/2024 18:50

In England suspenders are the old fashioned straps to hold up tights before they became elasticated. A very different thing!

GoodHeavens99 · 15/05/2024 18:43

WookeyHole · 15/05/2024 18:42

BC wears suspenders. Of course he does.

(The male variety aka braces. Which term is more common in the UK? Can't remember the last time I had reason to use either!)

Braces in England.

WookeyHole · 15/05/2024 18:42

BC wears suspenders. Of course he does.

(The male variety aka braces. Which term is more common in the UK? Can't remember the last time I had reason to use either!)

WFTCHTJ · 15/05/2024 18:31

I've got the giggles at the way Peter's standing. He does slightly look like he's been in the pub for lunch

HornyHornersPinkyWinky · 15/05/2024 18:18

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 15/05/2024 17:53

Wow, Allison looks awesome - love the Doc Martens :-)

FedUpWithBriiiiick · 15/05/2024 17:53

What a photo!

x.com/bluskyeallison/status/1790748253069197323?s=46&t=VOq5vP7NkcwfyVGLEBNjEQ

Motorina · 15/05/2024 17:38

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:13

How interesting, @Motorina. Is a scent hound the same as a bloodhound? And do they need training or do they naturally focus on human trails/remains?

The category of dogs that follows prey by their nose. Includes blood hounds. I have beagles who will notoriously eat anything including, I’m sure, bits of overripe people.

Somehow I can’t quite see KM having the emotional resilience for the role (nor would the dog KM was competing with last time we were in the same agility ring be particularly well suited). Mine, on the other hand? Crap at agility, superb at finding tasty dead things.

RimTimTagiTim · 15/05/2024 17:20

Motorina I've watched so many crime dramas and the body is nine times out of ten found by a dog walker. The dog walker is the one grey faced and retching in side shot being offered a tea. Presumably because they've just had to chase their dog around to remove the dismembered limb from them.

StickItInTheFamilyAlbum · 15/05/2024 17:16

MyLadyDisdainlsYetLiving · 15/05/2024 13:49

Thanks - my family generally don’t want to see the deceased’s body again after the immediate death. Have never been to an open casket funeral either, it’s just not common at all in my circles. So I’ve never had to consider anything related to morticians etc other than the funeral director asking whether we’d like to provide clothes for the deceased.

Would you have any insight into which aspects particularly cause problems for “trans, intersex and gender diverse peoples” then? I get difficulties around estrangements and around who makes the decisions could make things tricky, but estrangements happen for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of families.

Some communities, including my own, have the body at home (or the funeral director) for visiting/laying in and there will be round the clock presence (sometimes known as a vigil) until the body is removed to the service. E.g., wakes now often mean a post-funeral event but it's not that unusual for it still to encompass the pre-funeral mourning and visiting.

Judaism has 'sitting shiva' that starts after the interment. Shiva embraces a time when individuals visit the family, giving them an opportunity to discuss their loss and accept the comfort of others. There may be difficulties there depending on whether families accepted a change of role. If a Jewish TW (say) died, would people visiting the family, who may have known the person at different life stages, talk about the person in their memories or the changed status (e.g., from father to mother).

I realise estrangements and people's standing as acknowledged partners with a role in someone's funeral can happen in any family. However, there may well be fundamental splits and disagreements about fundamentals.

It isn't difficult to envisage circumstances in which a partner of the deceased may not always have recognised legal rights to influence the presentation and the clothing choice for the deceased. Nor the booklet that is part of the funeral service, the selection of memories in it, the photographs etc. If there is somebody delivering a eulogy, there can be similar difficulties (where this is religious or humanist). Even the headstone that might end up with a different name, definition of roles (father/mother/sister/brother). Unless somebody opts for a specific, "male presenting NB" status, I don't know what sibling-role some NBs might select.

I am ignoring KM's outmoded use of intersex. I should think most people with VSD want to be left to themselves and not used as political shields or weapons.

None of this includes end-of-life care, of course. So much will depend on circumstances.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:13

How interesting, @Motorina. Is a scent hound the same as a bloodhound? And do they need training or do they naturally focus on human trails/remains?

Motorina · 15/05/2024 17:05

I live very rurally and have scent hounds. I live in fear of one of my dogs emerging from the undergrowth with, I dunno, a hand or a foot or something. And having to choose between wrestling it off them or having to explain to the police where it went.

CriticalCondition · 15/05/2024 17:04

Surely the first thing the dog does on finding something like that is try to eat it - after all according to most dogs it is better to have eaten something and thrown it up, than never to have eaten it at all - is the training getting them not to eat it? Because surely that sort of thing starts at home.

Perhaps the whole point is that the transowner encourages the dog to identify as a cat. Then it won't eat the remains, just play with them and leave them on the doormat for an easy find.