NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

For the folk that were moaning that these threads ended up in Trending, here are half of the rare braw treats in Trending this morning.

Nothing against the OPs or the topics, truly, but this is not that unusual ime - MN generally do be like that.

Finally called my DH out on emotional affair with colleague (LTB obvs)
5am start (what time do you get up)
How much to lose your legs?? (weird and probably disturbing BBC news story, yet to unfold)
Would you have moved seats? (bizarre mcdonalds situation, not even a diagram, 0/10 would not read again)

It’d be lovely to think an intelligent emerg physician could reflect, come to the realisation that they’ve misjudged person A and made mistakes in judgment in doing so ie have the ‘penny drop’. That might, however, be asking too much. It’s more likely, IMO, that SP will continue to be held responsible in certain people’s minds for other’s actions. Festinger’s concept of cognitive dissonance captured this process nicely.

Referenced in a PT article on cults, this sums it up for me:
**
Backing out at more extreme asks would mean admitting prior actions were misguided, which, due to dissonance, becomes hard to swallow. Public commitments are especially potent, and cults capitalize on them. They know that if they can get people to act first, their minds will follow. For example, a recruit might be asked to volunteer for long hours. If at first they feel unsure, they may justify the effort.
**
The slight unease of dissonance is resolved by doubling down on positive feelings about the group. Chanting mantras you barely understand turns into, I’ll eventually understand.

Explains why it’s unrealistic to expect insight or realisation from those acting for NHS Fife…

Mornin' all. Has the questioning of KS finished now? Is it straight on to the HR person - AH?

KS is done for, I mean done with yes.

This is the crux of the issue. Some men have been allowed to wield such power and intimidate people (I suspect women and men) because it's become so easy to claim trans phobia and most people run and hide in case they're the next one accused of being one too. They're incredibly dangerous people. Do they get a kick from knowing people are scared of them?

Catching up again... this was KS yesterday

Bang to rights.

This is the problem with performative morality, where it's all about one's ego and external validation and adulation rather than what is actually right.

Of course you can, just identify as one. Welcome to the coven.

a - I sent myself an email yesterday and the original did not have Re: in the subject line, but I then replied to myself and it did. If I remember correctly, when I did used to work and we had Groupwise and then Outlook, I remember adding a Re: blah blah blah at the top of the email not in the subject header IF it was a continuation of a discussion about stuff but never did it if it was an announcement of something new or an instruction or a question. When I left, email programmes were changing over to 'group' discussions together using the words in the subject header and you had to physically go in and take out the 'conversation view' off of the view options.

b - I've never in my whole working life been looking forward to hearing from HR. Apart from that one time I was waiting for a contract to be faxed over so that I could resign. A momentuous day that I think today will match.

I hope everyone has supplies in.

I actually missed my train stop yesterday afternoon as I was so glued to this and TT on Nitter in the afternoon - I blame KS! Also went swivel-eyed from staring at my phone for so long. Which seemed apt.

WFH today so I’ve been through all the courgette cake recipes - thank you - and I am going to try marrow courgette “bread” (sounds healthier than cake and who I am to question its identity)

easygayoven.com/olive-oil-zucchini-bread/

I might add the Nigella cream cheese icing although that would require a trip to the shops. Not sure I am qualified to leave the house when this tribunal is going on - who knows where I might end up.

If this tribunal has taught us nothing else, you absolutely can be one in Scotland and they will defend your right to be one to the death.

What is really interesting is that it isn’t even Goliath vs Goliath any more. It is Goliath (spending public funds and the tax payer is getting really cross!) vs Goliath (backer willing to spend whatever it takes).

Cue the situation with the transcript. NHSF didn’t have one. The Claimant paid for one

Perhaps instead of asking Dr Searle
“Do you know whether you’re male or female?”
the question should have been
“To the best of your medical knowledge, how would you determine your sex?”

it would have put her professional capability on display, although I accept it already was.

I've been following Alex Massie on XTwitter for years and am delighted he's commenting on this.

And I really resent the suggestion on Reddit that bigotted terfy hags are bored and short of things to do, I have so many things to do, and far too little time to do them in.

Re the hag stuff (re will forever be changed for me now) the phenomenon of ageist misogyny within TRA communities and posts never ceases to astound me. I'm in my early 20s and it makes me super uncomfortable. I saw a post somewhere unrelated about how in the Salem witch trials it was mainly young women accusing older women of being witches, and the similarities are so striking. If I hear one more woman's argument written off because she's 'ancient' or a 'biddy' or even just 'old woman' I'm gonna scream. I hope one day when they get older they look back and feel really ashamed of themselves, and can see how much they were upholding the patriarchy from every angle.

I'm sure this point has already been made, but I'm struck by how hard it is made for transpeople when the culture in which they move colludes in the pretence that the only way to be respectful of them is to believe (or at the very least school themselves to behave exactly as if they believed) that TWAW and TMAM.

It makes their claim to respect so very fragile, something that has to be endlessly worked at (by themselves and others) so that it doesn't fall apart.

Imagine a sane world in which the protected characteristic of GR was dealt with by employers (and others) without this laboured pretence. How easy it would be for HR just to say stuff like "Do let me know if there are any issues with the gender-neutral changing facilities." And "Naturally there are some circs in which your sex becomes salient (eg when a patient asks for a female doc), but do let me know if anyone is harrassing you with needless ref to your sex.

Such a huge release of the tensions of pretence. Conditions for mutual respect established for everyone.

I read the “how much to lose your legs” post and the linked BBC article about a surgeon accused of removing his own legs by choice, encouraging others to do the same, and purchasing videos from a website called the Eunuch Maker. He seems like an excellent example of a truthful and kind and honest doctor (assume he was, prob still is, registered with the GMC)

I just keep reflecting on the character of the opposing sides through the last few years. Maya, fiercely intelligent, implacable, precise, tolerant.

Allison, again fiercely intelligent, brave, dedicated, indomitable

Sandy, determined, grounded hugely, resilient.

These are characteristics we should be celebrating, but these women have been punished for saying no, over and over again.

On the other side we have weeping and wailing, support animals, medics who don't know what sex anyone is, liars, sneaks and a host of absolute bampots. Yet these are the ones who are celebrated and protected. If we continue to embrace this feeble mindedness, we deserve to go extinct

Somebody on the last thread, apologies, I can't remember who, said they thought Kate Searle got off lightly. I agreed and then started thinking about why.

I realised NC didn't spend much (maybe even any?) time on those letters Maya put on TwiX about the fact Kate had found Sandie guilty from the moment she opened the emails and found out something had happened on Xmas Eve. Do you think that's because she thinks that fact is so obvious she didn't have any questions? I'd have liked her to have been forced to admit her blatant partiality at the tribunal!

S'all right, I'm wearing a bright yellow badge that says you're Safe with me

(Grins wolfishly)

I slept really badly last night with all this whizzing round in my head. After 2 days of festivities we have to face the fact that there are no more KS days ever!
But there is Darlington on the horizon. Which leads me to wonder. If you had written a statement for the Darlington process and were keeping an eye on the events in Fife, how would you be feeling now?

Okay, own up, which of you are hags? And which of you are bots?

I am a hagbot. Hear me roar.

the mummy's curse: may you grow up to have a daughter as ungrateful (unappreciative) as you are.

I think it's because the missing emails are far more damning, from a legal POV.

You can have some of my hagdom, I have enough for everyone.