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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

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26
BugsyMaroon · 24/07/2025 06:26

aaah a new thread.

TheKeatingFive · 24/07/2025 06:28

Pm

BugsyMaroon · 24/07/2025 06:31

I've just read the Times article. It says that KS said it was 'not fair' to Rehana to bring her up in the tribunal as she had not given her consent to be involved. But SP and 199 other women did not give their consent to have a man in their CRs. They were not even asked.

I could not follow in real time yesterday so this has probably been mentioned.

NannyMcSpareMe · 24/07/2025 06:38

So….just catching up and want to check I’ve read all this right….is the general consensus now that KS, upon realising that she may have been carried away while filling out the Datix and SP’s banishment not being as dead a cert as she initially thought it would be….did she then go on her own wee fact finding missions, trying to recruit “witnesses” (such as rhianna) who were willing to come forward and say “oh yes she’s also bigoted in these ways too…”. And Rhianna saw her coming and, quite wisely, told her to sling her hook? Which KS is now reframing as “not wanting to be involved”? Have I got that right?? I honestly can’t think of another reason for her bursting into tears at that point, other than a realisation in her that she knows NC knows that now, and all it infers about her desperation to be in the winning team.

if that’s the case, another ramification of it could be that this isn’t the first time KS has been involved in the summary dismissal/ forcing to leave of other members of staff, historically. Everyone knows how to fill out a Datix, and will have done several over the course of their careers. It’s a really soulless form, asking very narrow questions and demanding quite concise answers. The only real place for her adding a bit of “colour” to it is when it asks the reporter to write what happened. It’s not a place for reflections, feelings or opinions. Does this mean, then, that how she reported this incident now indicates that several others may have been a bit flowery too?

Honestly wish I could say any of this would be surprising. But the NHS operates such a culture of blame and scapegoating that everyone’s constantly looking over their shoulder, looking for ways to not just cover their arses, but bank some brownie points for the future when they’re inevitably accused of bad behaviour themselves. That’s what the weird “im kind” breakdown is about. She HAS to be kind. She’s told everyone she is, everyone has to believe that. That’s Who She Is, she’s probably had some sort of email signature telling people that and everything. It was her insurance policy.

Live by the sword and all that. If she doesn’t get hauled in front of a GMC hearing for this (reckon it’s 50/50, dependent wholly on how much damage they think has been done to the profession’s reputation) then at the v least her career in NHS Fife is over. She’s damaged goods, far too risky to fraternise (sororitise…sororise? We don’t discriminate!!) with. Her working life there won’t be pleasant.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 06:46

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 05:56

Yes, it can be, and indeed seems to be, both at the same time.

This is my favourite bit and I might have to use this phrase in future:
Maggie Chapman’s famous Chromosomes of Doubt

Until testing can confirm, I assume Maggie's karyotype is 43-PP (PersonPerson) ?

borntobequiet · 24/07/2025 06:47

tableauvivant · 24/07/2025 06:26

Don't those hags have anything better to do?

I feel so left out because I'm a guy and therefore can't be a hag.

Just identify as one.

Signalbox · 24/07/2025 06:48

I saw an HR email somewhere saying that suspension should be the last resort. Is anyone able to link or post this? I can’t find it now.

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 06:48

BezMills · 24/07/2025 06:46

Until testing can confirm, I assume Maggie's karyotype is 43-PP (PersonPerson) ?

Edited

I could sequence her PP chromosome is she wants, wouldn't take me long either :)

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 06:48

Did I pick up in the tribunal or read on here that not one of the consultants in the mass email replied, except one to briefly and mildly remind her that the matter was under investigation?

If this is right, that gives me some hope for Fife, although it would have been better for someone to take the bull by the horns and state unequivocally that her email was inappropriate.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 06:51

Signalbox · 24/07/2025 06:48

I saw an HR email somewhere saying that suspension should be the last resort. Is anyone able to link or post this? I can’t find it now.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womensrights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39?reply=145903054&utmcampaign=thread&utmmedium=share

I think this is the one, twitter link in post

https://x.com/LesbianPersist/status/1948073440239395069

SwivelEyedAndProud · 24/07/2025 06:55

NannyMcSpareMe · 24/07/2025 06:38

So….just catching up and want to check I’ve read all this right….is the general consensus now that KS, upon realising that she may have been carried away while filling out the Datix and SP’s banishment not being as dead a cert as she initially thought it would be….did she then go on her own wee fact finding missions, trying to recruit “witnesses” (such as rhianna) who were willing to come forward and say “oh yes she’s also bigoted in these ways too…”. And Rhianna saw her coming and, quite wisely, told her to sling her hook? Which KS is now reframing as “not wanting to be involved”? Have I got that right?? I honestly can’t think of another reason for her bursting into tears at that point, other than a realisation in her that she knows NC knows that now, and all it infers about her desperation to be in the winning team.

if that’s the case, another ramification of it could be that this isn’t the first time KS has been involved in the summary dismissal/ forcing to leave of other members of staff, historically. Everyone knows how to fill out a Datix, and will have done several over the course of their careers. It’s a really soulless form, asking very narrow questions and demanding quite concise answers. The only real place for her adding a bit of “colour” to it is when it asks the reporter to write what happened. It’s not a place for reflections, feelings or opinions. Does this mean, then, that how she reported this incident now indicates that several others may have been a bit flowery too?

Honestly wish I could say any of this would be surprising. But the NHS operates such a culture of blame and scapegoating that everyone’s constantly looking over their shoulder, looking for ways to not just cover their arses, but bank some brownie points for the future when they’re inevitably accused of bad behaviour themselves. That’s what the weird “im kind” breakdown is about. She HAS to be kind. She’s told everyone she is, everyone has to believe that. That’s Who She Is, she’s probably had some sort of email signature telling people that and everything. It was her insurance policy.

Live by the sword and all that. If she doesn’t get hauled in front of a GMC hearing for this (reckon it’s 50/50, dependent wholly on how much damage they think has been done to the profession’s reputation) then at the v least her career in NHS Fife is over. She’s damaged goods, far too risky to fraternise (sororitise…sororise? We don’t discriminate!!) with. Her working life there won’t be pleasant.

Edited

'Being kind' is part of the new mandatory GMC guidance to doctors despite much feedback during consultation that this was inappropriately subjective and likely to be used as tool to penslise non-narive doctors. So she needs to convince herself and others that really, if any mistakes were made, they were from a position of kindness.

SwivelEyedAndProud · 24/07/2025 07:00

CapeGooseberry · 24/07/2025 00:08

Didn’t RTF last T so don’t know if the point was made, but did KS ask all female junior doctors if they were happy using the female changing rooms? And if not, why did she ask Dr Upton?

Quite. Particularly as yesterday she made a point if how she really wouldn't have been able to tell what sex he was. Why did she assume, since she can't tell, how everyone else identified and what CR they referred? It's all such unbelievable bollox.

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 07:04

Reflecting back on yesterday and KS’ tears. I am slightly concerned for the HCA.

Aside from the unwanted media attention it’s how will she be treated at work.

We know the group of 6 worked together to try and punish Sandie going so far as to interfere in the investigation. Potentially they gave MC tittle tattle about vague suggestions SP was racist and homophobic.

As KS clearly hadn’t known the HCA made a witness statement that backed SP I have visions of her haranguing the HCA at work for not telling KS. The witness statement put KS in a difficult position and as a consultant she could make the HCAs life difficult at work. If the other 5 in the group do the same it could be awful for her.

Needapadlockonmyfridge · 24/07/2025 07:12

borntobequiet · 24/07/2025 06:47

Just identify as one.

This.
And don't worry, we will adopt a handmaiden position and maintain a staunch belief in your Hag-ness.

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 07:12

Good point @SwivelEyedAndProud .

She probably thinks, “We would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn’t for that meddling HCA”

Apologies to Scooby Doo.

Surely they wouldn’t dare for there to be any blowback on the HCA. Everyone will be watching for it.

Chersfrozenface · 24/07/2025 07:12

One social circle of mine has a habit of inventing imaginary bands, with associated set lists.

I'm going to hit them with Maggie Person-Person and the Chromosomes of Doubt.

cigarsmokingwoman · 24/07/2025 07:14

How was the HCA witness statement obtained, if the HCA apparently told KS etc she didn't want to be involved?

LizzieSiddal · 24/07/2025 07:16

Thank you for the new thread.

I couldn’t get onto the thread yesterday, it wouldn’t download, did anyone else have this problem?

Can I ask, how did “Rhianna” become public when KS had refused to say who she was?

cigarsmokingwoman · 24/07/2025 07:17

There's lots of people online saying they'd love to see NC cross examine Nicola Sturgeon one day. The question is though, which Pete would NC bring up? 😂

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 07:18

cigarsmokingwoman · 24/07/2025 07:14

How was the HCA witness statement obtained, if the HCA apparently told KS etc she didn't want to be involved?

I don’t think the HCA said that at all.

I think KS warned off the HCA with lies that SP would make her life hell if she gave a statement, what with SP being a nasty racist and all. The HCA didn’t play ball and when KS hear the name at the tribunal, she knew it was all over red rover. That’s why she had her “outburst”. NC had her number.

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 07:20

cigarsmokingwoman · 24/07/2025 07:17

There's lots of people online saying they'd love to see NC cross examine Nicola Sturgeon one day. The question is though, which Pete would NC bring up? 😂

I'm sure NC can manage more than one Pete.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 07:22

Chersfrozenface · 24/07/2025 07:12

One social circle of mine has a habit of inventing imaginary bands, with associated set lists.

I'm going to hit them with Maggie Person-Person and the Chromosomes of Doubt.

Big Sond and the Paunel Beaters

prh47bridge · 24/07/2025 07:24

cigarsmokingwoman · 24/07/2025 07:14

How was the HCA witness statement obtained, if the HCA apparently told KS etc she didn't want to be involved?

As I understand it, she made a statement to Fife's investigation and this, or a summary of it, was included in the bundle.

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