Page 4 | NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

Cismyfatarse · 24/07/2025 07:24

Case of nurse Sandie Peggie and the trans doctor is dystopian farce

https://www.thetimes.com/article/ba6130bd-cea2-4275-b299-55984a9648f2?shareToken=e332e2e888a8f7b943706edbbf979af2

crazysnakess · 24/07/2025 07:27

Largesso · 23/07/2025 22:38

I’m beginning to think that KS’s immediate response to DU’s initial claim against SP was entirely motivated by self interest.

As soon as DU mentioned reporting to police as a possibility KS was ALL about ensuring everything she did could not possibly be viewed by police as transphobic.

The last line in the email is very telling — DU should absolutely report to police (paraphrasing) and I’ll come out of it with a shiny commendation for my kindness.

I did wonder if she was afraid DU might start own ET but her comments about emails not being made available makes me doubt that.

But I am convinced it was all performative in fear of police investigation. An investigation for which there has no expectation of demanding disclosure but which would only look at official records and DU’s testimony.

I also believe KS has form with regard to controlling the narrative. She shows some skill in this and which would pass the usual tests but not the test of NC, CE and SP and solicitor Maggie.

She wanted DU to say to police that KS has been brilliant. She wanted to shuffle the pieces on the board to look a certain way with her as Queen, able to move in any direction.

There was a desire to be publicly rewarded for her kindness in a police report, perhaps. But more than anything she wanted there to be no accusation towards herself of even a sniff of ‘transphobia’.

One thing I don’t think we’ve addressed is that in today’s cross NC pulled out comms from Upton telling managers (or just KS not sure) that he is too scared to come in or some such. It was in about discussions regarding why changing shifts wasn’t feasible. KS offered up some BS then NC produces the email and pointed out that it was this pressure that resulted in suspension ie they chose suspension to appease Upton.

This would also tally with my earlier assessment— that KS was so absolutely convinced a police intervention was a coming and she was determined to be seen to have done the right thing.

She believes that allowing even the possibility of an encounter with SP in passing would be viewed as a ‘transphobic’ act

I imagine they had had some recent training around possible hate crime and she was deploying all that she had learned from that training
and what the likely police action might be. I think she believed herself to be expert

There is a darkness behind all
this that is the controlling hand of trans activism — as we know.

I wondered about recent 'inclusion' training as well. The impression I got was that she was so excited to have spotted an actual hate crime out in the wild that all common sense went out of the window.

She was forced to admit yesterday that she overstepped when she talked to the health care assistant. She hid emails though claims it wasn't on purpose. She centred Upton entirely. He used her. I think we saw that penny drop.

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 07:28

I'm going to hit them with Maggie Person-Person and the Chromosomes of Doubt.
I picture them as a bunch of whimsy goths, but what genre are they? Folktronica? Japanoise?

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 07:28

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 06:48

Did I pick up in the tribunal or read on here that not one of the consultants in the mass email replied, except one to briefly and mildly remind her that the matter was under investigation?

If this is right, that gives me some hope for Fife, although it would have been better for someone to take the bull by the horns and state unequivocally that her email was inappropriate.

I believe she had two replies out of 19. I’m assuming her zealotry lead her to believe that the silence of the others indicated acquiescence.

crazysnakess · 24/07/2025 07:31

CrocsNotDocs · 24/07/2025 06:48

Did I pick up in the tribunal or read on here that not one of the consultants in the mass email replied, except one to briefly and mildly remind her that the matter was under investigation?

If this is right, that gives me some hope for Fife, although it would have been better for someone to take the bull by the horns and state unequivocally that her email was inappropriate.

I can imagine some consultants receiving that email and thinking wtf, don't include me in this.

prh47bridge · 24/07/2025 07:32

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 00:59

“Could **or any other legal bods answer a question for me please:
HYPOTHETICALLY IF NC has in the bundle some metadata evidence of the disputed email chain, when a witness says, "you can't prove it", is it procedure to say, "well yes actually I can - can everyone please refer to Doc. 345..." OR is she waiting for evidence of the IT Technician to dispute the witness's testimony?“
@JamMakingWannaBe I’m not sure if I’ve quoted from the last thread correctly.
As far as I know all evidence has to be disclosed and lodged with the Tribunal. NC could look to pull a smoking gun type email/document out of her back pocket, but she would need the J’s approval to do that, and JR would likely oppose. So she’d be running the risk that a key piece of evidence wouldn’t be allowed. If it was already in the bundle, then Fife should be aware of it, but every chance if it’s a 1,000+ bundle that something could be missed.
NC seems very skilled at putting enough to the witnesses to allow her to draw conclusions in her submissions in due course. Risk would be that KS manages to provide a reasonable explanation (or at least says something vaguely credible which JR could then put to the IT expert as an explanation). KS already seems to have shown she’s a less than credible witness…very interested in what the IT expert has to say….

To add to this, if proving KS wrong involves interpreting metadata, NC would need an expert witness to do that. But I don't think she needs to bother. She only needs to prove things on the balance of probabilities, and in my view KS has already done that for her. "You can't prove it" is not the normal reaction of someone accused of something they didn't do.

Cismyfatarse · 24/07/2025 07:32

Sorry. Didn’t RTFT and see both articles had already been posted. I bloody love the way Alex Massie writes - clarity, precision and skewering of idiots in ever sentence.

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 07:33

Cismyfatarse · 24/07/2025 07:32

Sorry. Didn’t RTFT and see both articles had already been posted. I bloody love the way Alex Massie writes - clarity, precision and skewering of idiots in ever sentence.

Same, one of the first articles I look for Thursdays and Sundays in the Times.

Chersfrozenface · 24/07/2025 07:37

Igneococcus · 24/07/2025 07:28

I'm going to hit them with Maggie Person-Person and the Chromosomes of Doubt.
I picture them as a bunch of whimsy goths, but what genre are they? Folktronica? Japanoise?

What do you call that genre with a few derivative riffs, two lines of lyrics repeated ad nauseam and a lot of high-pitched wailing? That one.

@BezMills's band will obviously be metal of some sort. Any thought as to specific genre, Fife Leader?

hholiday · 24/07/2025 07:40

Cismyfatarse · 24/07/2025 07:32

Sorry. Didn’t RTFT and see both articles had already been posted. I bloody love the way Alex Massie writes - clarity, precision and skewering of idiots in ever sentence.

Completely agree and it’s worth posting twice, as he is so good. For a long time, I got him confused with Alex Mackie, who has also written for The Times and whose courgette and prawn pasta recipe is well worth checking out for anyone still looking for recipes (I used to think he had a lot of strings to his bow - cooking and skewering Scottish politics!) I don’t know what the second Alex’s views on SNP overreach or the genderist takeover of Scottish public services is though.

myplace · 24/07/2025 07:41

At the end of the last thread, a Reddit was posted which was apparently long and was received unsympathetically.

Can anyone say what/who it was? It’s now gone.

hholiday · 24/07/2025 07:41

Chersfrozenface · 24/07/2025 07:37

What do you call that genre with a few derivative riffs, two lines of lyrics repeated ad nauseam and a lot of high-pitched wailing? That one.

@BezMills's band will obviously be metal of some sort. Any thought as to specific genre, Fife Leader?

Show quote history

I’d pay good money to see a bezmills band of any genre

Conxis · 24/07/2025 07:42

This could have been a David and Goliath struggle. A nurse of modest funds taking on a huge health board with unlimited public money to piss away legal budget defending an ideology coming straight from the corridors of power.
What I find so scary here is what would have happened if she hadn’t found a backer who can provide the best money can buy?
Imagine she’d had to fund raise and watch every penny? Or her union had provided some support but funding was tight?
The stress on top of everything else would be unimaginable.

Here we have NC, CE, MG and I have no doubt an army of people and advisors supporting them behind the scenes, stonographers, paid for transcripts. Sandies backer is giving her the best chance imaginable and cost doesn’t even come into it so this is a Goliath v Goliath.
But I truly fear for what happens to someone else in this situation or if Sandie had not found her backer

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 24/07/2025 07:44

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 01:15

Honestly I think you’re both reading too much into things and I question the armchair theories.

Having worked in a senior public sector position prone to legal action - I think at the time of events, the NHS was more concerned about Dr U bringing a tribunal claim against them, they were never concerned about SP bringing a tribunal claim as she was the perpetrator in their eyes. He was the one who made the formal complaint which is a precursor to ET action. If SP got in there first with her own formal complaint, perhaps the situation would have played out differently. But given the real sequence of events, SP was never considered a victim or a complainant, merely the source of the problem.

Therefore Kate Searle was simply showing support to Dr U to diminish any claims he may go on to make about being unsupported by the NHS. Trans rights were a trending topic and the NHS saw it as an area with risk. She then received a taste of success after her approach was being praised by her seniors, because she had reduced the risk of ET claims by Dr U. Once support started to diminish due to potential ET claims by SP, she then just crumbled under the pressure and did unethical things to cover herself as the heat was solely on her. It’s likely her seniors who initially praised her, began to distance themselves and place her as the sole decision maker.

in summary it’s not about how pretty anyone was, narcissists or teenage children. It’s as simple as KS being too simple minded to see the bigger picture. She thought the only way this could play out was Dr U being a victim then covered herself when she realised she went in too far.

Edited

Show quote history

I think that could be it.

Needspaceforlego · 24/07/2025 07:46

Agreed Sandies backer is equally awesome.
What an amazing team.

This case has everything, and is so important. Not just for Sandie but for every woman and girl

Lins77 · 24/07/2025 07:48

myplace · 24/07/2025 07:41

At the end of the last thread, a Reddit was posted which was apparently long and was received unsympathetically.

Can anyone say what/who it was? It’s now gone.

Just a long meandering load of nonsense about God knows what. You haven't missed anything.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 07:50

Chersfrozenface · 24/07/2025 07:37

What do you call that genre with a few derivative riffs, two lines of lyrics repeated ad nauseam and a lot of high-pitched wailing? That one.

@BezMills's band will obviously be metal of some sort. Any thought as to specific genre, Fife Leader?

Show quote history

Big Sond is a fan of the classic blues. John Lee Hooker band. Nothing against the metals an that, but got plenty when his loddies* were in that band in high school.

🎼Ane whisky, (nae bourbon), twa beer
(aye hen please heavy if ye'v got it)🎼

(note I have no idea if Big Sond has children, this is just jinks)

Largesso · 24/07/2025 07:51

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 00:59

“Could **or any other legal bods answer a question for me please:
HYPOTHETICALLY IF NC has in the bundle some metadata evidence of the disputed email chain, when a witness says, "you can't prove it", is it procedure to say, "well yes actually I can - can everyone please refer to Doc. 345..." OR is she waiting for evidence of the IT Technician to dispute the witness's testimony?“
@JamMakingWannaBe I’m not sure if I’ve quoted from the last thread correctly.
As far as I know all evidence has to be disclosed and lodged with the Tribunal. NC could look to pull a smoking gun type email/document out of her back pocket, but she would need the J’s approval to do that, and JR would likely oppose. So she’d be running the risk that a key piece of evidence wouldn’t be allowed. If it was already in the bundle, then Fife should be aware of it, but every chance if it’s a 1,000+ bundle that something could be missed.
NC seems very skilled at putting enough to the witnesses to allow her to draw conclusions in her submissions in due course. Risk would be that KS manages to provide a reasonable explanation (or at least says something vaguely credible which JR could then put to the IT expert as an explanation). KS already seems to have shown she’s a less than credible witness…very interested in what the IT expert has to say….

I think the witness will demonstrate that Re: is a header which the system generates when you hit reply. Thus she will prove the later submitted Foot and Mouth email was part of a chain and for all 6 to have not submitted it in initial disclosure demonstrates collusion.

Their credibility will also be destroyed as their dissembling around her question about whether the start of the chain will be demonstrably nonsense and the only reason neither KS or LH admitted it was the first of the chain was because they had agreed in advance to do so.

I wonder who submitted it in the end. I think from one of KS’s answers it wasn’t her (NC questioning around her lack of finding it also suggests not her).

hholiday · 24/07/2025 07:51

Conxis · 24/07/2025 07:42

This could have been a David and Goliath struggle. A nurse of modest funds taking on a huge health board with unlimited public money to piss away legal budget defending an ideology coming straight from the corridors of power.
What I find so scary here is what would have happened if she hadn’t found a backer who can provide the best money can buy?
Imagine she’d had to fund raise and watch every penny? Or her union had provided some support but funding was tight?
The stress on top of everything else would be unimaginable.

Here we have NC, CE, MG and I have no doubt an army of people and advisors supporting them behind the scenes, stonographers, paid for transcripts. Sandies backer is giving her the best chance imaginable and cost doesn’t even come into it so this is a Goliath v Goliath.
But I truly fear for what happens to someone else in this situation or if Sandie had not found her backer

Tbh I think that is what the BBC and certain other media outlets have catastrophically managed to miss in their reporting of both this and the FWS Supreme Court ruling. They have been so busy ‘positioning themselves’ they have managed to miss the best part of both stories. Regardless of whether you are a feminist or not, they are both David v Goliath tales - one small (or small group) of humans taking on a huge, powerful institution and, against all odds, winning ( or in Sandie’s case, hopefully winning). That is the story, one as old as time, that is so gripping. And if the BBC had any shred of integrity, it would be asking your exact question - how many more cases are there and how many brave women will have to put themselves through this mega court battle before these institutions start acknowledging they are in the wrong. But because the bbc is one of those institutions, it’s not asking that. Yet.

BezMills · 24/07/2025 07:52

myplace · 24/07/2025 07:41

At the end of the last thread, a Reddit was posted which was apparently long and was received unsympathetically.

Can anyone say what/who it was? It’s now gone.

I think it was what you get when someone's main hobbies are internet conspiracies, scottish independence and blaw

(and they need tae tak mair baccy wi it if ye ken wit a mean ken)

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 07:52

Conxis · 24/07/2025 07:42

This could have been a David and Goliath struggle. A nurse of modest funds taking on a huge health board with unlimited public money to piss away legal budget defending an ideology coming straight from the corridors of power.
What I find so scary here is what would have happened if she hadn’t found a backer who can provide the best money can buy?
Imagine she’d had to fund raise and watch every penny? Or her union had provided some support but funding was tight?
The stress on top of everything else would be unimaginable.

Here we have NC, CE, MG and I have no doubt an army of people and advisors supporting them behind the scenes, stonographers, paid for transcripts. Sandies backer is giving her the best chance imaginable and cost doesn’t even come into it so this is a Goliath v Goliath.
But I truly fear for what happens to someone else in this situation or if Sandie had not found her backer

That’s exactly why JKR has set up her Women’s Fund, because there are probably a legion of women who have been treated in this despicable manner but simply cannot afford to pursue it through the courts.

PlasticAcrobat · 24/07/2025 07:53

tableauvivant · 24/07/2025 06:26

Don't those hags have anything better to do?

I feel so left out because I'm a guy and therefore can't be a hag.

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Is guyhag not a gender?

ItsCoolForCats · 24/07/2025 07:54

Apologies if this has already been covered, but is the HR person today a witness for NHS Fife? And does the claimant have any more witnesses to call. Was it just Sandie's daughter and mum in February?

PetethePlumbersToolkit · 24/07/2025 07:56

Morning folks. Just catching up.
I agree completely with what folks were saying about Sandie's matching handbags. It reflects subliminally how she nurses. Plus, she and her team knew (or hoped) that the case would garner huge attention and her photo would be beamed around the world. There needed to be nothing thst she could be criticised for via the photos. Excellent prep and yes, a stark contrast to the peeling paint on signage! The woman's a rockstar turning up day after day exuding confidence, warmth and a general sense of having her ducks well and truly in a row.
@BugsyMaroon commented we should all be more Sandie. I agree! Not just about handbags.
Thanks again @nauticant for excellent thread management. We either have insomniac Scots or the case is gaining interest down under. Probably a bit of both!

dottyhenson · 24/07/2025 07:58

Good morning