NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

The EDI industrial complex is a massive grift, full stop. It's a means for university-educated (yet below average intelligence), middle class people to perpetuate their own privilege, with their boots on the neck of those people at the coal face, who earn significantly less to carry out the actual core business of the organisation.

The best thing that could be done for EDI is to expunge these departments out of all organisations and start again from scratch with something that actually serves to progress rights and equality.

I think this is a very good analogy.

The NHS (like most employers) is not a friendly institution to work for. When you are working your arse off, doing extra hours and keeping a lid on issues because you know management don't want to hear about them, it is all "We're all in it together, you are a valued member of our team." But if the lid comes off the problems on your watch, you are hung out to dry without a second thought. While management say they had no idea there were any concerns.

And then they trumped up some charges of "patient safety" against her.

You would hope that the person responsible for the internal investigation would have found their spine and decided to run it properly. To me the grudging exoneration strongly suggests they were instructed on what they had to find as Fife were in an impossible position and they had to do damage limitation.

Well, it’s ✨trans✨, innit??

Most vulnerable, marginalised, blah, blah, blah.

And ffft - what’s Sandie??
She’s nothing when ✨trans✨ is brought into the equation.

We’ve seen that behaviour again and again, in (maybe) all the employment tribunals we’ve seen.
The other employees jump on the woman like white ants, and think nothing of it, especially when no one steps in to keep them in check.

I think the worst one was Denise Fahmy. Didn’t her colleagues have the bloody awful petition on their company SharePoint?

All TRAs colleagues are arseholes, though.

You don't need to be interested in gender issues to find this tribunal relevant. It's an alarming insight into the embedded incompetence beclowning institutions like the NHS, barristers' chambers and universities. We've seen in various ETs so far:

-complete lack of meeting minuting
-lack of policy/policy ignored
-assumptions made without fact checking
-no knowledge of/lack of interest in the relevant law
-no accountability
-chaotic disciplinary processes

I'm starting to wonder what percentage of the UK can actually do their job. I think my favourite moment was when various OU academics were dragged sulkily into the courtroom and forced to mutter truculently that yes, technically they did sign a letter (slagging off a colleague) without actually reading it, but someone said she was an awful meanie, so it was probably true.

Hopef the outfit that made the Mermaids v Charity Commission into a play will do it with this one. Corker! So many jaw dropping moments

Calm down calm down its only a jumper. (Said in my best Liverpudlian with a hint of Cheshire thrown in.)

My thoughts exactly. They have been dragged into this toxic world of lies and are now suffering the consequences. But of course they are all women and are therefore utterly expendable. The patriarchy strikes again. Where are the men who most likely hold all the most important jobs in NHS Fife? Hiding behind the women. All this stuff needed good lawyers' oversight and proper policies and procedures. And fairness for women. If I was GM or any of the others involved in this travesty I think my mental health would be absolutely shot. Dog-eat-dog workplace, that's for sure.

I suspect someone at the top made it clear that the shit show of a discipline process had to be cleared up asap. I suspect a grown up started looking at the statements and timelines and instructed the deciding officer on what had to be done.

I have seen similar situations unfold when the people involved get so bogged down that they can’t see the wood for the trees. They wanted a specific outcome to appease Upton and got themselves tied in knots because there just wasn’t the evidence they wanted there to be.

I very much doubt it, unless there is a significant incident around patient safety that brings issues around normalisation of poor practice to light. (Not saying that happens btw)

Absolutely accurate in my experience. The management culture is utterly toxic.

Sounds like they'll have a script already. I don't envy them the editing though.

Just for anyone who might not have read it -

www.rapecrisisscotland.org.uk/resources/ERCC-Review-Report-FINAL1-.pdf

I come back who actually took the decision to suspend? Sounds like he was male and is not in court to explain himself. Why not and what conclusions is Naomi entitled to make from that?

Also advice from IB, based on yesterday's testimony, was that it might be discrimination not to allow DU to use the female changing rooms.

In my view that's reasonable advice before the SC judgement unfortunately, and similar to what some lawyers might have given.

That's not the same as DU being "entitled to" in legal terms, as there can be conflicting rights i.e. Sandie also has rights here.

IB wasn't given the full scenario by Sandie's manager when she approached i.e. that there was a woman distressed by DU using the facilities. You can't advise without full pic.

It doesn't help that these conversations aren't being recorded. I understand people are busy but I would absolutely jot a short note to myself.

Yes the cr incident was what triggered the event.

DU later introduced new complaints when giving a formal statement (days or weeks?) later after the private chats over Christmas with someone they knew at the BMA who was happy to take calls when the BMA was closed for Christmas. DU then introduced the "patient care" concerns that had happened several months earlier. It's almost like the BMA mate tipped him off that more accusations were needed to get rid of SP.

Can anyone remember when SP was asked to give her version of events? IIRC it was after they had already decided to suspend her - so bias from the outset

I think they did throw her in the river metaphorically speaking. They certainly hoped she would drown and be swept down river.
But someone came along with a lifeboat because she had the presence of mind to shout out for help.

Shower of smug, comfy, misogynistic, anti-working class bastards.
There's a fecking lot of it about, and it's good to see these people on the ropes here.

<I feel better now>😃

Well that’s the approach taken in the Scottish Hate Crime legislation I believe - it’s all about how the “victim” perceives it. So what’s the point of an investigation you might wonder.

Just snorted my coffee all over my cat! 😂

Re your wish that one of the Fife witnesses will break ranks: I suspect all potential witnesses for the defense will have been thoroughly risk assessed for precisely this and excluded from appearing if there was even the remotest chance they’d do as you suggest. It’s like in Allison Bailey’s case against the vet practice. The defense never called the vet who had the closest working relationship with AB because he had GC views and had been supportive of her in the Garden Court Chambers tribunal. His absence, and the absence of the very relevant evidence he could have provided, was noted by the judge. But it was obvious why the defense couldn’t call him: he’d have been obliged to tell the truth & thus (to extend your military theme) comprehensively HIMARS the defense’s case.

Had interesting discussion with DSs (starting with an meme) and discovered that according to that generation, a bimbo must have big breasts. You must be dim and well endowed for that epithet. I pointed out I hadn’t seen her and they asked how I knew she was a bimbo, then. Her vague words were not enough, apparently.

Do understand that’s a summary of a convoluted and meandering conversation where we all furtled around trying to work out what the other was saying. I didn’t walk in and announce any young woman in particular was a Bimbo.

I've got my money on an Independent Board member going through the last Tribunal Tweets and tells them to get their arse in gear. I doubt it's anyone in the nursing management structure.

I just found the actual ET judgment of that case which ran to fifteen respondents including a Professor of Medicine.

data.parliament.uk/DepositedPapers/Files/DEP2014-1569/1810815_2008_Judgment.pdf

Oh absolutely. 💯