NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

Yes she had! What the heck did they expect her to do??!

It's not just "do it to Julia", is it? It's "here, I'll do it to Julia myself, save you the bother".

I know a lot of Tories. They are nothing if not pragmatic.

The independent review of ERCC was pretty damming

Ha ha ha. Another ally bites the dust.

It's like they don't really believe, isn't it?

Sandie was in an impossible situation.

NHS Fife made it impossible for her.

And they were so sure of themselves they didn't think to cover their own arses with standard due process. And that's what ultimately kills off any defense they had left.

They are spent.

I'll see your Wardrobe, and raise you Pine-Coffin

Richard Pine-Coffin - Wikipedia

From a procedural perspective GM is right that the datix is the event that triggered the investigation: someone (DU) reported a problem that occurred and that needed addressing.

I think there's an additional significance to the datix being what triggered the investigation.

Because (I think from following TT) the datix only contained detailed information about the CR incident. Nothing to do with patient safety concerns. Apart from possibly a reference to "escalating behaviour"?

Throughout the whole tribunal, there's been obfuscation about whether the suspension etc was due to patient safety concerns or the CR confrontation.

But no one bothered to datix any patient safety concerns, or even mention them for months after the incident (the Snickers bar child at Halloween). When, if something actually bad happened it would preferably have been datixed before the end of the shift. And dealt with then, because it would have been a big deal.

So the investigation was started because of the CR incident. Anything else was added on later.

Jamie 'Katie' Wallis, ex-MP and harasser of his ex-wife, was misgendered by his own defending KC!!
It's clear that TWAW was never widely believed, we even have TRAs now who say that they know they can't change sex, the are just 'presenting' in the opposite gender but acknowledge they are still the sex they were born into.

This just in : NHS Fife have found their DEI policy covering all 9 protected characteristics and are faxing it to the court over lunch. They are sure it will help their case and sort out nasty bigot Sandie Peggie once and for all.

It is a single sheet of A4 photocopier paper

it has three words written on it in green dry-erase marker

PROTECT THE DOLLS

So this entire shenanigans is as simple as
DU says he’s a woman and starts using women’s changing rooms despite perceiving the discomfort of SP (and perhaps others).

Sandie raises it with her boss, twice, who tells her to go to DU himself.

In Going to DU as instructed, a disciplinary was inevitable and she was suspended. Because a man saying ‘I’m a woman’ top trumps actually being a woman.

That’s it. The whole shenanigans costing 220k so far as well as costing the hospital a good nurse AND her pay while suspended, presumably.

Bloody hell, just reading through this morning tweets. What a shocker. Some thoughts on quotes.

"was the manner in which she went about raising the issue, Beth felt intimidated and harassed"

• classic women are responsible for men's feelings, plus a nice bit of DARVO

"I find it unacceptable that one colleague would confront another." - that's literally part of the NHS Scotland harassment policy, "you are encouraged to...speak to the person to inform them that their behaviour is unacceptable."

As well as Sandie had told her line manager that she would have to speak to DU, also suggested by policy.

Woah. This is very much TRA nutter at the top of the hierarchy. Much worse than IB yesterday, who at least didn't know any women had raised concerns.

I am looking forward to NC getting back to the timelines of this - a flowchart would be fabulous - to demonstrate, if needed, to the panel what an utter shit show this has been.

I've read a few judgements in cases that aren't discussed on MN, & they can be quite entertaining as a glimpse into human nature & a reminder of the world of work.

The judgements are available on the internet. You've reminded me to track down one which got mentioned on X & is not entertaining at all.

https://www.foxwilliams.com/2016/10/03/nhs-consultant-awarded-4-5-million-for-sex-and-race-discrimination/

Nah its far to entertaining, even just reading along NC in action is awesome 👌
Wish I had a fraction of her talent.

Sandie, her name has been cleared, I hope she is enjoying watching them squirm, she deserves that for the shit they have put her through over the last couple of years.

Thanks again to Sandie and her awesome backer.

I’ll raise you my Mum’s uncle, aunt and cousins - the Wombles of Clown

JR is getting criticism here but credit to her, she's doing her best in her job, which in this case is damage limitation. She's expecting to lose badly and her way to mitigate this is that everyone on the NHS side was acting out of the best of intentions, and followed the process that was in place. Her goal is to reduce damages and other sanctions and to remove sharp critical comments from the resulting judgment as much as possible.

On another point r.e. suspension the obvious answer would be to investigate the patient safety allegations separately, which were extremely flakey with no dates or details, a long time after the "event" and colleagues did not agree with.

You cant get away from the hierarchy/ class issue here. Sandie is a nurse and despite the NHS paying lip service to working in teams and valuing everyone's contribution she is expected to be subservient to the doctor. Add to that she's from a poor area of Fife and Upton has connections. They thought they could treat her like shit and not bother with due process because she wouldnt have the resources to challenge it.

whether something was discriminatory was all dependent on Upton’s feelings. Did GM not hear the words coming out of her mouth?

'a withdrawal' is a rout; a 'phased withdrawal' is a rout with insufficient transport.

It isn't even a "strategic withdrawal to prepared positions" (the usual figleaf for a rout) because Fife won't have any prepared positions - they will never have imagined that they might need them.

Thanks for the reporting Bez. Scouser here, I'm enjoying learning a new dialect, whilst taking my jumper on and off. Sound lid!

Leaving aside everything to do with SP, will there be any repercussions for the hospital if through the trial it becomes clear that they aren't properly recording serious patient safety incidents?

(I know we doubt that these incidents happen, but NHS Fife doesn't seem to be surprised that the incidents weren't reported earlier)

I wonder why NHS Fife didn't save themselves all this expense and hassle and just throw SP into the river, if she floated she was a transphobe and if she sank she was guilty of professional misconduct.

I can't believe GM is in charge of nursing! Obviously if you tell someone their behaviour is unacceptable they might get upset!

I am also wondering how Sandie got off eventually at the Internal Investigation from GM's evidence. Did someone else put their foot down?

This is riveting, I hope Sandie is enjoying this somewhere with a nice drink in hand, celebrating her job now being safe.