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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:46

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:17

Part of me thinks "put NHS Fife out their misery" at this point but I also know we need to go through due process because we need to see how bad it is and how far it's spread from an accountability point of view

There isn't a cat in hell's chance at this point it's not going Sandie's way.

There I said it.

She's won. The only thing left to be resolved at this point is the degree of how much Fife have fucked up. The admission of a lack of written policy and note taking during the disciplinary process are the nails in the coffin for Fife.

nauticant · 17/07/2025 13:17

nauticant · 17/07/2025 13:08

One of the problems that NHS Fife have that became apparent this morning is that everyone knew Sandie Peggie had committed heresy against gender identity ideology, that they needed to stamp on it hard, but underlying this was that they hadn't put their heads together to decided what the actual heresy had been.

It's sort of:

Heresy of this kind is so bad that we know that the punishment should be harsh, and so we don't need to have worked out exactly what the crime was.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:18

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 17/07/2025 13:15

Are employment tribunals usually like this?! I imagine they're normally pretty dry and boring. This is like it's been written for TV!!

It feels wrong to be so gripped by it when someone's livelihood is at stake.

In a word.

No.

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 13:19

Watch yer feet hen, I'm no even sure whit that puddle is.

that’s gotta be the best one yet….crying here!

thanks @BezMills

PlasticAcrobat · 17/07/2025 13:20

NotAGentleReminder · 17/07/2025 13:03

From TT:
GM: the process was started because of the Datix that was generated.

Ohh, so is she saying that the consultant who filled out and submitted the Datix with Dr Upton is responsible for everything that followed?

Makes sense: Asserting that an an alleged piece of discriminatory behaviour had its birth, not in the actual incident, but in the recording of it ,is the exact parallel of claiming that sex is not a material reality but something that is assigned at birth.Grin

Poor old Sandie's behaviour was assigned discriminatory at birth.

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 13:21

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

ThatCyanCat · 17/07/2025 13:22

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 13:11

Same for me, I had no idea it was a name that originated outside of the UK. It's not disimilar to Bamba which has origins in Yorkshire I believe.

I think its closeness to 'bumbling' is what struck me as slightly comedic

Yes, I originally thought it was some variation of Bamba/Bamber or Bumstead. And when you display such incompetence and your name rhymes with "I'm a bumbler"...

catscatscurrantscurrants · 17/07/2025 13:22

Watching all of this playing out, I think NHS Fife could have summed their case up in three words - burn the witch.

CantHoldMeDown · 17/07/2025 13:22

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 13:23

catscatscurrantscurrants · 17/07/2025 13:22

Watching all of this playing out, I think NHS Fife could have summed their case up in three words - burn the witch.

Such parallels with ERCC

Hoardasurass · 17/07/2025 13:24

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 10:59

Yes I'm puzzled by that, hadn't read anything about n MSP being involved??

That will have been murdo fraser. He's been backing sp from the start hes gc and I believe a former lawyer.
He's a good egg for a tory

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 17/07/2025 13:24

BezMills · 17/07/2025 13:09

From TT

J - reminds GM to please speak as loudly as possible, struggling to hear her
NC - email from JHurkiss to colleagues: ED was on board with my advice, impossible to keep them apart, advice was to suspend after discussion with GM. The real reason for the suspension was a need to protect DU from SP.
GM - I've said already it was about the risk assessment.
NC - what if SP raised again that DU was a man and shouldn't be in a woman only space.
GM - I wouldn't know, a convo between J Hurkiss and ED.
NC - before the break, you agreed, that patient safety allegations were raised because SP did not want DU in her CR.
GM - it came from the Datix
NC - the whole process was set off by the convo on Christmas Eve,
JR - my note doesn't say because of,
NC - I thought she did but we can check the transcript this evening

Fifer : that's the soond of the stenographer paying off

J - do you want to reframe the question
NC - the patient care allegations only arose after the Christmas Eve incident, it was prompted by the Christmas Eve allegation.
GM - the reporting in the Datix suggests that there were other concerns of Beth.
NC - SP has told DU that she does not want DU in her CR because he is a man, that is what gave rise to the allegations.
GM - DU raised a number of serious allegations
NC - but SP felt that she was harassed by DU in the CR, if she found his presence intimidating, she found his presence harassing - I'm no asking you to agree that it's true.
GM - yes, if thats how she felt
NC - there's no way that SP could have raised that with DU that would not have been discriminatory
GM - there's a way she could have raised it that would not have involved a confrontation

Fifer : wis there, aye

NC - there was no way to SP could have made that point to DU in the CR that wouldn't have been discriminatory,
GM - I can't answer that, I don't know about Beth's feelings
NC - how could she have raised it?
GM - through her line manager
NC - was there anyway that SP could have raised the issue with DU in the CR, that wasn't discriminatory
JR - this question has been asked and answered
NC - it has been asked but I think not answered
J (Big Sond) - it has, 'it depends on how it was asked, etc'.

Fifer : Big Sond weighs in. NC no bothert, dingys um again.

NC - let's go back and look at DU account , assume it is true

Fifer : that sarcasm was visible from Falkland Hill

J - checking with GM, have you seen this before clarifying what is relevant <all are reading now>
NC - assume everything is true, what's wrong with the manner in which C raised her concerns with DU
GM - it describes a difficult and escalating convo, compared to convicted rapist
NC - so if I ask you to pick out the worst thing, what is it
GM - she keeps telling Beth that she finds him intimidating and keeps repeating that
NC - so what was happening here was that SP was saying that sex matters in this situation, you may want to pretend you're a woman you are not a woman, and you are not a woman even if you call yourself one.
JR - that's not what the para says
NC - it's a fair precis,
<NC question, not GM answer> she says she feels intimidated, isn't it obvious that she doesn't want to get undressed in front of a man and she doesn't believe that DU is a woman.
GM - that's not what it says here
NC - it's perfectly obvious that she was objecting to a man in the woman's changing room.
GM - she was upset with DU being in the CR
NC - is there nothing in that statement that indicates that she was upset that a man was in the woman's changing room
GM - Beth "SP kept saying I was not a woman'
NC - doesn't that mean that he's a man
GM - some people have a gender id different from their sex, but there are biological men and women, so yes, I would agree

DR U AND ALL OF TRANS REDDIT TAKES IMMEDIATE SERIOUS EMOTIONAL DAMAGE AS GM ADMITS THE EXISTENCE OF MEN AND WOMAN

NC - and SP is saying that sex matters in this situation, this is the essence of her gender critical belief, that was the expression of her core gender critical belief.
GM - it might have been an expression of her core gender critical belief, but it was not appropriate to be confrontational about it
NC - there is no suggestion that she raised her voice or was aggressive,
GM - no
NC - so it follows that the suspension was because of her gender critical belief.
GM - the suspension was because of the risk assessment that was done
NC - so the entire suspension process was because of her GC belief
JR - a multi part question
NC - I thought we had agreed that SP was complaining about DU's presence.
GM - I don't know that.
NC - the process started because of SP complaining about DU in the CR
GM - the process was started because of the Datix that was generated
NC - it was SPs rejection of the harassment by DU that gave rise to the disc process

NC just dropping the ACME Anvil like it's nothing.

GM - it was the manner in which she went about raising the issue, Beth felt intimidated and harassed.

NC - I'm about to go on to another area of questioning, and conscious of the time.

NC flashes her briefcase open briefly while putting her parker pen away. It is bigger on the inside, and contains thousands of anvils.

J - lets break for lunch, back at 2 pm. Court rises

Fifer : <gestures Fife-ily> Fucks sake min, it's like a fuckin abbatoir. And that's only the forenane! We've got another sesh in the efternane yet. Gonnae need a bit more than a vileda fuckin supermop in here. Watch yer feet hen, I'm no even sure whit that puddle is.

Does NC genuinely have a Parker pen???

I grew up near the factory in the '80s, a Parker pen was the pen we were presented with when we passed our pen certificate in year 4.

I still take a Parker pen to work with me.

#Couldn'tLoveNCMore

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:25

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 13:23

Such parallels with ERCC

ERCC make NHS Fife look competent imho.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:25

ERCC had policy in most areas and did note take.

Cailleach1 · 17/07/2025 13:26

GreenFriedTomato · 17/07/2025 13:08

I don't believe GM believes a word of what she's saying about gender identities. I really think she's just going along with what everyone's supposed to say wrt TWAW.

The earlier 'what am I supposed to say? Yes. When asked if she knew whether she was male or female, seemed like another way of saying 'what a silly question, of course I know I'm female'

Still part of a distasteful crew that prioritised a man’s wishes to be in the changing room where women are get undressed. And part of a distasteful crew that gave him carte blanche to take his kit off in front of them too. Dressing that all up as good.

Whereas a woman who was distressed to be undressing in a changing room in view of a man given access (and possibly open to him taking his clothes off and exposing himsef there too) was the problem. Possible that there would be a woman alone in there, undressed when a man could wander in be given an eyeful of her with any consent. The stress and abuse they were happy to heap on women.

I know I keep repeating this, but you would have thought enabling men to commit possible voyeurism and exposure would be actively enabling conditions and opportunities for possible sex offences. Without any consultation, never mind consent of the women. Now we know they were actively breaking the law. Do they hang their nasty heads in shame? Do they heck? They have the nerve to still say she was bold for not allowing herself to be used and abused like this. In my opinion, they were part of the this abuse against her.

I’m incandescent about this abuse against women that they facilitated.

Igneococcus · 17/07/2025 13:26

I wonder how all these women now feel having squandered their reputations and potentially risked their jobs, having their words and faces splashed across the news to support delusional Dr Upton who won't give a damn about them beyond their usefulness to him. I'm almost feeling a wee bit sorry for them, almost but not quite.

CompleteGinasaur · 17/07/2025 13:26

HappierTimesAhead · 17/07/2025 13:11

Same for me, I had no idea it was a name that originated outside of the UK. It's not disimilar to Bamba which has origins in Yorkshire I believe.

I think its closeness to 'bumbling' is what struck me as slightly comedic

In contrast to her evidence, which was outright farcical.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:27

Igneococcus · 17/07/2025 13:26

I wonder how all these women now feel having squandered their reputations and potentially risked their jobs, having their words and faces splashed across the news to support delusional Dr Upton who won't give a damn about them beyond their usefulness to him. I'm almost feeling a wee bit sorry for them, almost but not quite.

Women are capable enough. They have allowed themselves to get into this position because it suited their own self interest.

PutThe · 17/07/2025 13:28

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:17

Part of me thinks "put NHS Fife out their misery" at this point but I also know we need to go through due process because we need to see how bad it is and how far it's spread from an accountability point of view

There isn't a cat in hell's chance at this point it's not going Sandie's way.

There I said it.

She's won. The only thing left to be resolved at this point is the degree of how much Fife have fucked up. The admission of a lack of written policy and note taking during the disciplinary process are the nails in the coffin for Fife.

They don't appear to want putting out of it.

They're evidently still going with the Sandie was in the wrong tactic, and don't think the SC decision matters because it isn't applicable here. Albeit IB appears to think it does, but she's not the one instructing the barrister.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2025 13:29

These are women who grifted because they thought it would serve their own interests and careers.

They didn't once think what was the correct procedure.

BezMills · 17/07/2025 13:29

WeMeetInFairIthilien · 17/07/2025 13:24

Does NC genuinely have a Parker pen???

I grew up near the factory in the '80s, a Parker pen was the pen we were presented with when we passed our pen certificate in year 4.

I still take a Parker pen to work with me.

#Couldn'tLoveNCMore

Edited

I am afraid I have no idea, just pulled it out of my heid

Merrymouse · 17/07/2025 13:29

NC - there was no way to SP could have made that point to DU in the CR that wouldn't have been discriminatory,
GM - I can't answer that, I don't know about Beth's feelings
NC - how could she have raised it?
GM - through her line manager

So she is supposed to trek back to the ward dripping blood on the floor?

(And I thought she had already raised it with her line manager?)

Boiledbeetle · 17/07/2025 13:30

This is all ridiculous. The woman on the stand is old enough to pre date all the current be kind think.

She knows perfectly well what Sandies issue was, that Beth was a man and that until the world went mad Sandie would have been totally in the right telling him to fuck off out of the women's changing rooms and Beth would have been getting sacked for being a pervert.

MarieDeGournay · 17/07/2025 13:30

Observing the NHS Fife witnesses having to defend the indefensible - because their bosses have already admitted 'on the courthouse steps' that the allegations against SP were unfounded - reminds me of these military definitions:

'a withdrawal' is a rout; a 'phased withdrawal' is a rout with insufficient transport.

IB, GM & co. are like the stragglers who couldn't get a place on the lorries, left fighting a half-hearted rearguard action while the rest of the army, in particular the generals, have buggered off to a safe distance and commandeered some local stately home to set up a new rear command post..

They are in a position where they can only make themselves look indoctrinated, stupid and above all wrong. I could almost feel sorry for them.

Wouldn't it be great if one of the NHS Fife witnesses said
'Look, what's the point in keeping up the pretence - there was no proper structure, no proper organisation, no policy, we were passing the buck between ourselves because we didn't know what to do, all we knew was that anything trans had to take precedence, so the trans doctor had to be protected at all costs... Sorry Sandie, you didn't deserve this, we should have stood up for you and we didn't'

NebulousSupportPostcard · 17/07/2025 13:30

SternJoyousBee · 17/07/2025 12:39

I think you are right about the meeting with ED in Jan! Well remembered. I am probably just adding in my own bias about the way unions treat women.

There isn't even clarity about the date the first meeting was arranged/took place. From SP's account, ED phoned her and they arranged for her to go in for a chat the next day and SP reported feeling better because she would have someone to talk to and understand. When she got there and saw it was formal she asked if she should have a representative and they said something like not needed this time. But it ended with them offering to show her out of the back door on suspension.

The letter she was sent had a different date on it, which probably was an attempt to backdate the proper procedure.

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