NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #29

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27
Thread 28: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374630-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-28

She's brilliant. She slowly and carefully gets them to declare increasingly ridiculous things and then comes in with a final sum up which just shows just how mad what they are saying is.

There was one point in the last session in February when we all saw the point coming but it was still glorious when it landed.

I'm assuming the questioning here relates to the investigation that didn't happen (until it was decided that perhaps it had) before the "actual" investigation.

Thanks. I'm on it now. Very helpful.

This is absolutely shocking and scary stuff. It also explains a lot.

JR is doing an excellent job for NC. Surely something NC will possibly reference. Bet NC is chuckling away on the inside at this.

When she dropped the DARVO bomb... incredible!

Following on TT. Interesting that sentence about the Datix complaint. That it was an incident involving a protected characteristic. SP was complaining about the trampling over her protected characteristic of sex, a man being in the women’s changing room where women undress (and it appears he got the green light from NHS Fife to be amongst women doing that and indeed undress himself there too) Yet it seems to be all about the protected ‘characteristic’ of claiming to be something you are not.

TBH this is what I thought yesterday when someone suggested that Bumba's name would quickly be forgotten after the case because it's unremarkable. Unfortunately for Bumba I'll never forget the initials IB or or the first name of Isla or that fact that she brought up the topic of Bryson unprovoked as though it somehow helped supported her assertion.

Is Dr U in the court? I haven't heard any mention of him or seen any pics.

So why isn't there a similar complaint logged by SP? I'm sure she raised it as an issue?

There's no reason for him to be there and he would be a distraction and so best to stay away.

From TT

JR - what was your role in the ix
J (Big Sond) - need to catch up
JR - now emails you sent or were copied on. First one; your email on 2 Jan, ref'd Datix extract, Nurse A has been supported with special leave. Why did you send
GM - this was on my return to work, I was asking about next steps
JR - did you have a call with HR on 3 Jan
GM - I can't recall
JR - previous page is email from you to Norma Beveridge, why did you send her the Datix
GM - just making her aware
JR - your email to Ian Mccloud, 3 Jan, who is he
GM - deputy medical director
JR - why did you write to him
GM - a doctor was involved so I had to involve the medical staff
JR - he says he's going to update the director of medical education, involves a doctor.
GM - missed
JR - email from J Hurt (sp) near the end, ED says that it will be impossible to keep them apart, patient safety issue because of seriousness of issue, wants to suspend. What was your discussion with ED
GM - it was a risk assessment, because of severity, were considering suspension, that comes up through me and then to Norma Beveridge as an escalation
JR - refers to SP working elsewhere, what was that about
GM - my recollection is that I said that was possible, depending on the risk assessment, it was an option
JR - why would that be an option
GM - it's always an option, to deploy elsewhere if people can't work together
JR - refers to patient safety issue, who thought there was a patient safety issue
GM - it was ED, who maybe had more information that there was a previous incident or incidents
JR - did you give any advice on that point
GM - just that she would have to work through the risk
JR - to Feb, suspension extended, 2 emails you were copied in on, one from ED, one from Michelle Gilmour both CC'd to you. what was you awareness of the incidents in these emails
GM - just that I was copied in, they reviewed the suspension and any extension, I don't get involved, it's up to the suspending manager. <missed a q&a>
JR - email headed urgent referral, needing support, what was going here re occupational health (OH)
GM - OH were facing some staffing problems, couldn't get support for SP, they were advising ED that it was going

Fifer : One of them was there 30 year, gets on wi abdy. The other fresh oot ay school. it wisnae obvious tae big Gill which of the twa needed a fit up the erse at this point, but a deh ken how no?

God what is wrong with these people? Swallow the allegation whole without even speaking to the other party. Yes I know they were going to “investigate” when they got round to it, but how could this be considered a satisfactory process? Where were HR in this..?

IB is an adult responsible for her own actions.

She is involved enough as an activist to start babbling on about biological sex being complex and not straightforward in line with the current activist line.

That's a choice not to be neutral even now.

She should have had various bits of essential knowledge in her role. She has actively not sought this out and denied any knowledge of what Stonewall thought.

This is a grown woman with a degree level education who should understand sourcing and bias and the essential key points relating to the equality act. She did not.

She also by her own free choice put that she was an ally in her email signature.

No one forced her to do any of this.

It was her job to have a policy on trans issues. She was saying she had several questions a week on the subject and yet at no point did she feel it necessary to ensure the trust had developed a written policy. Even it was not directly her job her role meant it's absence was central to what she did and she would have had significant influence in making sure whoever might be responsible for that did it as a matter of due diligence - the absence of one was always going to be a situation where the trust was potentially exposed.

If she's facing a backlash that's because it's in line with the responsibilities of her job which she is accountable for. If she was negligent in her job or not doing her job then it's not someone else's fault is it? You can't go around blaming someone else for not doing your job.

If she's suddenly got the shit from the trans activists then more fool her. She wasn't paying attention to this being a men's rights movement and the whole point is that it crushes anyone who doesn't go along with it. We've been saying it all along and it's not exactly a big secret now was it back in 2023.

Lets not start making excuses for incompetence.

Sadly, I don't think people like IB do face the consequences of their (in)actions. My guess is she will stay put or sideways and in a couple of years she will have progressed up the ladder (assuming her career isn't interrupted by those pesky issues such as maternity leave etc).

The only protected characteristic these hand maidens are interested in is men pretending to be women. NC brilliantly demonstrated that yesterday when she asked IB why she only had ‘trans ally’ in her LinkedIn profile, because surely all the other protected characteristics are just as important? Especially for someone in her particular position.

TBH I have, once or twice, been looking for a job on promotion, applied for a bunch of things where I thought I met some of the criteria, and ended up being offered a job where I was slightly out of my depth to begin with.

But I wouldn't be out of my depth three years into the job.

On the other hand I think of someone I trained up when he was an AA, and he wasn't brilliant then, and the next thing I knew he was a G7, because he was great at talking the talk in interviews and never stayed in one job long enough to be found out. I suppose you can do that when you're young, but eventually you have to find your level.

Just following orders is NOT a legal defence.

None of these people have a backbone between them. Having a backbone is essential for safeguarding.

If you fail to try and safeguard you are part of the problem and shouldn't be in that role.

Noone has considered the Public Sector Equality Duty not just to avoid discrimination but to promote good relations between people with protected characteristics and those who dont. Fife hasn't got the first idea about considering PCs in the round. They just picked Gender Identity as their favourite and worked on misunderstanding it to the max.

I don’t think IB qualifies for maternity leave because she hasn’t seen her chromosomes.

Norma Beveridge, Director of Nursing in 2023. Anyone know who J, Hurt is/was?

I'm really enjoying the Fifer translations @BezMills

JR - your email to Ian Mccloud, 3 Jan, who is he
GM - deputy medical director

McLeod - same as IB pre marriage. In fairness, a very common name.

She's got an unfortunately memoriable name.

Ima Bumbler will stick.

From TT

GM - OH were facing some staffing problems, couldn't get support for SP, they were advising ED that it was going to be a few weeks to get SP OH support
JR - why did you need OH
GM - its part of the i/x process to give OH support
JR - a reply from you to Melanie, what was the update
GM - giving an update to Melanie, when the next meeting was going to be, GS had been off work for some time
SP had said she was waiting on availability of her MSP to join her so couldn't give availability
JR - what did you make of SP asking to have her MSP join the suspension meeting.
GM - I'd never heard of that
JR - we would support her being accompanied by union rep or colleague

Fifer : that union was aboot as much use as a biscuit ersed bairn but aye