Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 22:08

BundleBoogie · 16/07/2025 21:42

That reminds me of the shenanigans that took place in order to employ the man to explain periods to teenage girls. A charity was it?

I think that might have been a Fife or Dundee council - fairly sure it was a flag waving council

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 22:08

@SionnachRuadh
Vague and vibey sums it up!

oldwomanwhoruns · 16/07/2025 22:08

We can't see much of the room, @Noodledog . The camera is pointed at the witness, you get a side view of the barristers. And the Bench. But the picture isn't big either.

nauticant · 16/07/2025 22:10

In a couple of rooms observers have asked the clerk to increase the size of the video window and they're done that without any quibbling.

OP posts:
Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 22:10

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 22:06

Good grief. I sometimes have to write role specs professionally, and the first thing that comes to mind is - far too many essential criteria, and they're all vaguely worded. Knowledge of legislation isn't tested until interview, and that might just mean having heard of the Equality Act.

If I were recruiting for this job, I'd have no more than five essential criteria, no more than one desirable, and they'd be spelled out in enough detail that the interview panel would know exactly what they were testing.

I know DEI is often a vibes-based job, but that role spec is so vibey that I can easily imagine IB coming in - or maybe interviewing online - and being young and charming and energetic enough for them to just think "she'll do".

I wonder if that thing comes into play where people think that youth bestows an innate understanding of human rights issues.

TWETMIRF · 16/07/2025 22:15

Finally caught up to the end of the thread.

I think that when faced with NC, anyone would struggle to spell NHS

Bannedontherun · 16/07/2025 22:17

Flipping eck just caught up. Poor Bumbling Bumba. I cannot get my head around how defence thought she would make a good witness offering a salient account of how reasonable they all were.

She is fodder of her own making.

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 16/07/2025 22:20

anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 22:07

one of the pictures of Naomi makes it look like she is having to try hard to keep a straight face - and a woman behind her had lost the fight.

Do you mean one of the photos on The Express's report of today's afternoon session? If so, I'm sure it's a photo from the first part of the ET, and that's DU himself behind her.
Would love someone to confirm my take on this, or otherwise.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 22:21

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 16/07/2025 22:20

Do you mean one of the photos on The Express's report of today's afternoon session? If so, I'm sure it's a photo from the first part of the ET, and that's DU himself behind her.
Would love someone to confirm my take on this, or otherwise.

Looked like Upton to me, or a man, at any rate.

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 22:22

@rebmacesrevda Top sleuthing! Good for you!

I've read the job description and person spec.
I agree with pp re criticisms. Bumba is supposed to advise on relevant law yet no formal legal qualifications required.

Heavy on the Team Player always translates to me as bark only when and where we want you to bark.
Hmm.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 22:25

@LarkLaneAgain
Thanks 😂
Honestly I'm surprised NHS Fife haven't buried it along with all the other incriminating evidence! I wonder if it'll disappear soon...

lcakethereforeIam · 16/07/2025 22:26

<pants> caught up. Thank you everyone. 'He's Spartacus' 🤣

Also Swinney having faith in Fife!? Wtf happened to not commenting on an ongoing case?

murasaki · 16/07/2025 22:26

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 22:25

@LarkLaneAgain
Thanks 😂
Honestly I'm surprised NHS Fife haven't buried it along with all the other incriminating evidence! I wonder if it'll disappear soon...

Good thing we have receipts, as ever....

ArabellaScott · 16/07/2025 22:27

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:59

Found it! Here's the job ad from 2022: JD and Person Spec attached to the ad. I had a quick look and I meet all the criteria easily, despite the fact it's not my area of expertise. What a farce.

https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?jobid=97941&source=JobtrainRss

I went to archive it but someone got there four months ago!

https://archive.ph/wip/1gIoE

https://archive.ph/wip/1gIoE

murasaki · 16/07/2025 22:27

lcakethereforeIam · 16/07/2025 22:26

<pants> caught up. Thank you everyone. 'He's Spartacus' 🤣

Also Swinney having faith in Fife!? Wtf happened to not commenting on an ongoing case?

I think he can as it's not a criminal case. But he's a raging foolpiece for doing so.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 22:27

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 22:22

@rebmacesrevda Top sleuthing! Good for you!

I've read the job description and person spec.
I agree with pp re criticisms. Bumba is supposed to advise on relevant law yet no formal legal qualifications required.

Heavy on the Team Player always translates to me as bark only when and where we want you to bark.
Hmm.

i still think someone like a reporter or the like should look into IBs connections within the trust. I am only going by instinct but i would bet large that she has some family connection at a top level. I know that it makes no difference but might show a cliquey nepotism going on.

murasaki · 16/07/2025 22:29

I think it's more that she ticked a couple of boxes and was young and malleable enough to do what the senior management wanted due to lack of experience.

Edited to say that I'm not sure I should say she, as after all, isla isn't sure....

Scout2016 · 16/07/2025 22:32

I would have liked NC to push more on the religion aspect. I think I would assume that women of some religions would not wish share spaces with men. Rather than argue that they might actually be fine with it. I don't think she considered them at all, I bet if asked for a rough idea of how many women of various religions worked there she wouldn't have the foggiest.

I would also have loved it if NC had told her what they stats on the prison population of trans prisoners tells us. And it's not that the magic worlds of "I am a woman" render them safer than safe. The "I believe TW are safe because I have only seen one case where they weren't on the news" response was just pathetic.

Her entire approach is copy (sorry, "lean on") other people's homework and assume it's worked out fine unless someone complains.

My kid's primary school has posters up about the Human Rights Articles, this isn't complex! How is IB not embarrassed not knowing? It's in her job title! Any how could she not know if they were Stonewall Champions? Who arranged that if not the EDI lead???

Bannedontherun · 16/07/2025 22:33

And bloody hell that poster name CL was obviously a TRA didn't see it in real time but was expecting an outburst.

endofthelinefinally · 16/07/2025 22:33

As a nurse who was running my own ward at 25 and was a band 7 nurse at the end of my career, I am absolutely appalled at this level of incompetence, yet, sadly, not surprised. It is absolutely mind boggling.

OP posts:
BundleBoogie · 16/07/2025 22:37

BeaTwix · 16/07/2025 22:13

That’s the chappie! Awful situation

And Beatwix, was that your post about the changing rooms where you are a consultant? That’s just beyond awful - you do such an important job - you and your clinical colleagues should be getting tip top facilities - not treated with such contempt. I hope you can push them to change it.

KnottyAuty · 16/07/2025 22:37

@FannyCann you seem to have described a single toilet/shower which has had a load of lockers added into it. I just don’t see how this meets the Workplace h&s regs at all…. And the hygiene? I thought the Fife changing room was actually the locker room (really CR in the basement) and that Sp refused to change in the loo cubicle because it’s unhygienic and this was confirmed as correct by Esther during Part 1. So your Trust sound like they’re ripping up the rule book… who on earth is the facilities manager that they’ve done this?

nauticant · 16/07/2025 22:38

end of thread

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.
Swipe left for the next trending thread