NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

That poster is an 'ally', so hardly surprising they don't take kindly to BU not being centred in every post.

Perhaps being paid more than a man is what confused her and is why she doesn't know whether she's a man or a woman.

Fuck me. How is she not in A&E every month screaming if she doesn't know she's a woman?

Catching up here.

IB was dealing 'frequently' with queries about trans issues - at least weekly. We know of fewer than half a dozen trans staff at Fife, but there will no doubt also have been questions about patients.

None of these frequent questions were about changing rooms.

So what were they about? Surely at least some would have been about various types of single sex space or provision (loos, wards, staff performing procedures amd examinations) that cover many of the same issues and rely on the same areas of law as the changing room question.

I'm not sure that I agree with JKR that IB is 'perfectly intelligent'.

She's certainly vastly overpaid and under-qualified (so in that respect at least, much like a mediocre man).

Maybe I'm being unkind, but IB does not strike me as someone who does joined up thinking.

Now I really need that WTF face 😮

Thank you!

I don't understand where they are going with this, as I can't see why the tribunal would take it upon themselves to use different reasoning to the SC re definition of sex. But am intrigued to find out.

You took over one that I started too for a different tribunal! It ran for a long time also. I was tremendously grateful!! 🙏🏻

I would pay good money to see this.

I've said since the SC judgment was handed down that it would be a very brave lawyer who stood before a judge and tried to argue that the SC's legal reasoning about the definition of "women" in the EA would be materially different if worked through for the Workplace (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1992 (to the extent it should be read as including some men, no less!)

I wonder if we're about to hear from a very brave lawyer...

When Grok was asked on Twitter if it agreed with JRK, it replied as per screenshot below.

Good sitting, Grok.

I'm in the market for buying a really nice bridge next.

Maybe this info is still to come with future witnesses, and maybe it has already been explored in tribunal (I'm late to the party), but I'm curious as to who signed off on SP suspension. HR? On the basis of what procedure/report/interview etc. between the parties?

Also, what role has the CEO or overall manager of Fife NHS got in all this? If none I wonder why. Is everything delegated including ultimate responsibility? If so, why the heck is there a chain of command in the first place.

Look I'm not expecting anyone to do the research for me, I'm just thinking out loud!

😁

Bless you. You're applying logic to a completely absurd situation. None of these people employ any sort of rationality, so you're going to have to lower your expectations!

Also re: Health and Safety Regs, IB said that she didn't consult them when advising on the policy, so I'm interested to know what exactly JR will be arguing.

Thank you!

Is this a record for continuation threads?

One of the replies to one of my several complaints to my Trust about their trans policies went like this (abridged):

Me: facts and evidence
Them: it would be illegal to deny transpeople the use of facilities which align with their gender identity
Me: that isn't the law, at all, who told you it was?
Them: we asked the EDI lead and the staff LGBTQIA+ network.
Me: did you ask any women, or the Trust's lawyer?
Them: we consulted all relevant stakeholders

Fife is unusual in not having a policy. Most Trusts have a policy (or did before FWS, probably all hidden now) and they all discriminated against women and people of belief and most threatened sanctions to anyone who spoke up.

This was the Telegraph headline back in February.

Looks like Isla Bumpling needs to lawyer up after today's performance. 🥳👯‍♂️🍹🪩🕺

Just popping in to agree that DU is not highly trained. He graduated in 2021 from Dundee Medical School, presumably did Foundation years 1 & 2 somewhere then was appointed as a junior clinical fellow - a non-training service post - in a not-very good district general hospital. He's one step up from being straight out of uni and appears to be a very difficult person to work with and have very little idea of consent and medical ethics.

Did anyone do a count of misgendering or correct sex identifying of 'transwomen' by Bumba today?

But are they a "top ally" because quite frankly I only want to be dealing with the best allies, the ones that are going to win me top trumps.

At least people won't remember Isla Bumba and the stuff she came out with today and she'll live it down, because she doesn't have a memorable name that we'll all remember forever.

@CinnamonCinnabar He was doing his training rotations in Fife. One was in a&e and one in psych, dont know about the others. His junior clinical fellow post was psych in Fife. I'm interested in where he is now as many junior doctors are finding it hard to get any work now.

She was merely following in the time-honoured tradition of the Daily Express, who announced they would be referring to BU as a man throughout their reporting because (TLDR) he is one.