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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

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27
Roomforapony · 16/07/2025 21:32

FlamingoLlama · 16/07/2025 20:14

But are they a "top ally" because quite frankly I only want to be dealing with the best allies, the ones that are going to win me top trumps.

This is “top tier”👏🏻
We need the 😂emoji back!

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 21:35

Regarding training placements, I think for foundation training posts (straight after med school), at least until very recently you could be allocated just about anywhere in the country. And then would need to apply for Core training posts that again might be anywhere. I have quite a few medic friends and most of them have made big cross-country moves at some point during training.

For some medical training pathways, Scottish NHS boards are grouped into larger regional areas and you can be asked to work anywhere within that region during a training program. For example, someone I know who is registrar-level has worked across Lothian, Lanarkshire and Forth Valley in the last 4 years. So staying just in your local hospital does sound pretty cushy in comparison!

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 21:38

"My hospital has created a new ITU by repurposing three adjoining wards. I sometimes have cause to go up there, and naturally am interested to see what changing facilities have been provided - the SP case was ongoing whilst the works were done, I think it completed in April and the staff mostly wear scrubs - they need proper changing facilities.
As far as I have been able to observe there is an entrance corridor with various rooms on each side - offices, kitchen, relatives room. There are two doors opposite each other marked “Staff only” with a key pad. One has a frosted glass panel. This one had been left propped open by the cleaner as I passed so I nipped in for a look. I wish I could post pictures but that would be a little too identifying. I can’t tell you how shocked I was by this room. It’s a narrow L shaped room with a block of 15 lockers (small square, stacked five high) and next to the lockers is a loo. Literally right next to the lockers! Opposite the loo in the L part is a spacious shower.
So only one person at a time can use the space to change or access lockers which must be very trying at busy shift changeover times. Having the loo directly next to the lockers absolutely disgusts me. Eww. Splash back anyone? And bending down to loo height to access the lockers directly next to it? I’m not sure about hygiene regulations but this can’t be acceptable surely?
I don’t know if the room opposite is a mirror image or similar layout or if there are any other changing rooms I haven’t spotted. But take it from me - staff comfort and convenience are VERY low priority. But hey ho. Anyone can use it whatever their sex or gender. 👍"

@FannyCann I honestly would not have believed that possible. 😳Apart from the truly horrifying health and safety implications, how on earth are staff supposed to change (and even shower) before and after shift without wasting an inordinate amount of time queueing outside for the room to become available? It's mindboggling and in the worst possible way.

BundleBoogie · 16/07/2025 21:42

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:27

People at the top can obviously write the qualifications to suit the person they want to get the job. If she has a relative that is very senior in that trust then that can be what has happened. But yes, obviously, could be argued that IB and BU were absolutely right for their jobs and in BU case should be defended to the death (of anyone who got in their way). Where I live nepotism is rightly very legislated against. But still happens all the time.

That reminds me of the shenanigans that took place in order to employ the man to explain periods to teenage girls. A charity was it?

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 21:43

Thank you to those reposting TT and excerpts from The Herald etc today.
Blooming well done. Despite many attempts to stop us discussing what is going on, it has been business as usual. @nauticant you are truly a star!

Some great newspaper journalism also.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:44

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 21:26

What are the relevant qualifications for the post? Are they laid down anywhere?

It'll vary from Trust to Trust. The person spec for non-clinical jobs is often pretty vague e.g. any degree, some unspecified knowledge of equality and diversity, lots of things in the "desirable" column rather than the "essential" column. I've had an eye out for EDI jobs to see what they ask for, but there's been none in NHS Scotland lately. Possibly some on NHS Jobs website (for England & Wales).

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 16/07/2025 21:44

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 20:15

At least people won't remember Isla Bumba and the stuff she came out with today and she'll live it down, because she doesn't have a memorable name that we'll all remember forever.

It will become a verb. As in ‘she pulled an Isla Bumba’.
She’s bloody useless - a proper Isla Bumba.

BeaTwix · 16/07/2025 21:45

@FannyCann NHS changing facilities are woeful. I work in theatres (so have to change at least twice a day, sometimes more). I've worked in more than 20 locations across the UK.

Inadquate space and locker provision is the norm.

My current workplace (changing rooms confirmed post supreme court to be based on gender identity) has a far too small room for the staff who use it. Since the hospital opened four additional operating theatres have been added but the changing rooms the same Last summer they replaced the locker units to double the capacity but there still aren't enough. Some people have lockers in the corridor or coffee room.

EDIT: And the women's changing room (or room for those who identify as women) is right next to the reception desk. There is no internal screening to stop people looking in when the door is open. I have my locker in the area immediatly in front of the door. I have lost count of how many of my male colleagues have seen me semi-naked putting scrubs on and off. Dignity at work my fucking arse.

Despite the increase in locker provision a recent poll of my immediate colleagues after someone got their clothes stolen showed that 77% of respondents had a regular clinical commitment in an operating theatre suite without somewhere secure to leave their belongings.

We are consultants. We provide and lead on patient care. And we get treated like shit. The locker ownership rate amongst the nursing staff is higher (the nurses control locker allocation).

Our tone deaf trust leadership team released a video showing the amazing office facilities they enjoy in an attempt to recruit admin staff - posh coffee machines, relaxation zones, private meeting rooms etc.

Meanwhile the changing room situation is as above, and they won't fund a royal college recommended floor consultant to facilitate people getting breaks/ assistance in emergencies. I've been stuck in theatre with a menstrual flood trickling down my leg unable to leave on more than one occasion. But the computer network screensaver tells me they "care about staff". My dept has no desk space for consutlants. We either work from home or have to use the resident doctors hot desking zone.

The whole situation pisses me right off.

CaptainCarrotsBigSword · 16/07/2025 21:49

MrsOvertonsWindow · 16/07/2025 17:43

That Express article is damning!

Indeed. Ouch from the Judge as well!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
WearyAuldWumman · 16/07/2025 21:50

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 16/07/2025 21:13

The 4th & 5th year med students from Dundee have lanyards saying that, or at least they did when I've been to the hospital for various things.

Thank you.

Catiette · 16/07/2025 21:52

Thanks to all commentators, and especially Naut! Just caught up. Suspect I'll slip behind again very quickly, but am following along. 🐌

SlackJawedDisbeliefXY · 16/07/2025 21:52

Doesn't seem to be a lot of coverage on the BBC website

I know that it sort of takes a PhD to dig down to non headline stories but all I can find is a reference to SP being cleared of misconduct on the Scotland page

Binglebong · 16/07/2025 21:52

Mermoose · 16/07/2025 17:56

So:

*Nobody knows what sex they are if they haven't had their chromosomes tested.

*Anyone who claims to be opposite to the sex they are is irrefutably correct and infallible and will never change their mind, lie, or be confused about this.

*We have different changing rooms for men and women and it's very important trans people can choose which one they want to use.

*What even are these words - men? women? - I dunno, it's just too complicated.

Just had to share the juxtaposition of your post and this ad.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:52

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:23

I only know what happens here frequently even though it is a ‘crime’. Relatives of senior people get jobs that they are not qualified for. I’ve no idea if IB is in that category. But given the scenario i guess it could be true. Would be definitely worth looking into. Similarly Dr Beth Upton appears to have extreme privilege and support from the top. Why on earth is that? I wouldn’t know.

BU's mum is a chaplain at Sick Kids Hospital, and his step-dad is...
Bishop of St. Andrews (!)

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2025 21:52

And I can’t write “allyship” without thinking of The Big Ship Sails Down The Ally-ally-o.

@AlexandraLeaving, this is the one with a verse about a ship sinking, in the way that gender ideology is? How terribly fitting Grin

And... I've been here all day and followed most of the proceedings, and I missed the scolders? So disappointing.

SidewaysOtter · 16/07/2025 21:55

ChimpanzeeThatMonkeyNews · 16/07/2025 21:44

It will become a verb. As in ‘she pulled an Isla Bumba’.
She’s bloody useless - a proper Isla Bumba.

"How useless were they?"

"Oh, dreadful. Hadn't got a clue what they were talking about and they've been vastly over-promoted. The full Bumba."

PrinceYakimov · 16/07/2025 21:56

Just catching up on the events of today.

The sophistry of Bumba and those in similar roles who bought into this is shameful. I bet she fucking knows what sex she is if she needs to take steps to avoid pregnancy. I hope the tribunal throws the book at them.

The class and age dynamic is not lost on me. It couldn't be a more clear cut case of young middle class professionals amusing themselves playing the latest in-group status game and shitting all over working class, middle-aged nurses in the process.

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 21:56

@BeaTwix

i was shocked at the post to which you were replying but what you describe is utterly horrifying. No privacy, dignity or safety for you or your possessions. I'm so sorry your Trust values its clinical staff so little and treats them so appallingly.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:58

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:52

BU's mum is a chaplain at Sick Kids Hospital, and his step-dad is...
Bishop of St. Andrews (!)

Just need to know now is IB similarly blessed with her relatives!

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:59

Found it! Here's the job ad from 2022: JD and Person Spec attached to the ad. I had a quick look and I meet all the criteria easily, despite the fact it's not my area of expertise. What a farce.

https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?jobid=97941&source=JobtrainRss

Equality & Human Rights Lead Officer:Hayfield House

https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?jobid=97941&source=JobtrainRss

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/07/2025 22:01

Helleofabore · 16/07/2025 20:13

Did anyone do a count of misgendering or correct sex identifying of 'transwomen' by Bumba today?

Im lazy so I pasted the substacks into chatgpt.

Also I should charge my phone.

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
Noodledog · 16/07/2025 22:04

Could someone who has watched these proceedings answer a question I've been wondering about for a while now- when someone says something unusually batshit- like Isla Bumble not being sure what sex she is- is there any kind of reaction in the room? Or does everyone just sit completely straight faced and silent, as though this is a perfectly normal thing for someone to say in an employment tribunal?

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 22:05

ScrambledSmegs · 16/07/2025 21:12

The Times is really making the most of Isla Bumba.

I think the story about Emma Watson's driving ban is still my favourite headline of the day though - ' 12 points to Gryffindor' Grin

Yes - also using the 'I don't know my own sex' headline

I don't see how all this claimed ignorance about the relevance of sex can't harm the reputations of doctors and the NHS in general.

SionnachRuadh · 16/07/2025 22:06

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:59

Found it! Here's the job ad from 2022: JD and Person Spec attached to the ad. I had a quick look and I meet all the criteria easily, despite the fact it's not my area of expertise. What a farce.

https://apply.jobs.scot.nhs.uk/Job/JobDetail?jobid=97941&source=JobtrainRss

Good grief. I sometimes have to write role specs professionally, and the first thing that comes to mind is - far too many essential criteria, and they're all vaguely worded. Knowledge of legislation isn't tested until interview, and that might just mean having heard of the Equality Act.

If I were recruiting for this job, I'd have no more than five essential criteria, no more than one desirable, and they'd be spelled out in enough detail that the interview panel would know exactly what they were testing.

I know DEI is often a vibes-based job, but that role spec is so vibey that I can easily imagine IB coming in - or maybe interviewing online - and being young and charming and energetic enough for them to just think "she'll do".

anyolddinosaur · 16/07/2025 22:07

one of the pictures of Naomi makes it look like she is having to try hard to keep a straight face - and a woman behind her had lost the fight.

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