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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

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rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 20:50

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:48

Unfortunately I've had to start a new thread now. My broadband's gone very wonky and at the same time trying to access MN is giving me a message from Cloudflare that I'm being rate limited and they're preventing me accessing this site. I've broken through just now but that problem might return.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

For some reason I read that as "my husband's gone very wonky". Classic Mumsnet.

FlamingoLlama · 16/07/2025 20:58

KnottyAuty · 16/07/2025 20:25

During part 1 someone pointed out that DU seemed to have done a lot of their placements very close to home and this was unusual. Like they’d had special considerations?

One of my DC is doing a healthcare related degree and although there is the potential for placements 3 counties away, so far they've only been very local ones, I presume because of disability (ND) being taken into account.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 20:59

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:23

Perhaps the stately homes threads hold the record.

the Archers are on 188

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:00

Butchyrestingface · 16/07/2025 19:42

I'm not sure that I agree with JKR that IB is 'perfectly intelligent'.

She's certainly vastly overpaid and under-qualified (so in that respect at least, much like a mediocre man).

Well give her some credit, she can't be completely thick or struggle with LD or she wouldn't have a degree etc.

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 21:04

Helleofabore · 16/07/2025 20:13

Did anyone do a count of misgendering or correct sex identifying of 'transwomen' by Bumba today?

I just went back for a quick look and I counted 3 if you include the TW are different from other men bit which I do. I've highlighted them in bold and underlined the ones I found, but I just skim read so may have missed some.

[missed]
NC men generally stronger/more of a threat to women.
IB When you talk c tw and tm risk is significantly less.
NC You are saying men in general are greater threat to women than vice
IB TW are different from other men in level of threat they present Less of a risk, except for Isla Bryson

NC Any other reasons to let him use the cr
IB Inclusion in workplace. Art 8.
NC Anything more concrete?
IB Not sure why what I said wasn't concrete.
NC Would providing him with a private space to change would have provided him with dignity etc
IB Asking him to to do wouldn't uphold his dignity

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 21:11
Austin Powers Movie GIF

I want to know who is TOP ALLY?

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2025 21:11

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:48

Unfortunately I've had to start a new thread now. My broadband's gone very wonky and at the same time trying to access MN is giving me a message from Cloudflare that I'm being rate limited and they're preventing me accessing this site. I've broken through just now but that problem might return.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

I've been getting that today. Its annoying.

ScrambledSmegs · 16/07/2025 21:12

The Times is really making the most of Isla Bumba.

I think the story about Emma Watson's driving ban is still my favourite headline of the day though - ' 12 points to Gryffindor' Grin

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28
NebulousDog · 16/07/2025 21:13

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 20:59

the Archers are on 188

I think you might find many posters trip/trop between the two.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 21:13

LarkLaneAgain · 16/07/2025 21:11

I want to know who is TOP ALLY?

Oh god, that sounds exhausting. That job's gotta be band 8b at least.

Justkeepingplatesspinning · 16/07/2025 21:13

WearyAuldWumman · 16/07/2025 20:37

The Vic is a training hospital and I think it's the case that they get students and graduates from three Scottish med faculties. Fife's a small place, so you're never really that far from home if you work there.

Any time that I'm at the Vic I see numerous trainee nurses wearing uniforms giving their designation as students from Dundee. (Can't remember how trainee doctors are identified - maybe via ID badges.) Once they're newly qualified, I think the docs just have the same ID badges as the rest of the regular staff.

I've tried Googling, but can only find specific reference to Lothian NHS Foundation Doctors being placed in Fife.

The 4th & 5th year med students from Dundee have lanyards saying that, or at least they did when I've been to the hospital for various things.

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:16

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 20:33

I have no knowledge but if IB doesn’t have a close relative somewhere at the top of the leadership i would be very surprised. Similar to BU. I’m obviously just guessing though :-)

That is a very good point. They must be cringing at her today.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 21:17

ScrambledSmegs · 16/07/2025 21:12

The Times is really making the most of Isla Bumba.

I think the story about Emma Watson's driving ban is still my favourite headline of the day though - ' 12 points to Gryffindor' Grin

am especially loving all the "12 points to Gryffindor" on account of Watson loathing JKR these days.

ETA. As for Top Ally. Easy Peasy - just identify as Top Ally.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:20

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:16

That is a very good point. They must be cringing at her today.

they would be the reason she got the job. With no experience. So, if it’s true they broke employment laws. Where I live that is a crime. Maybe it isn’t true. How would I know. And employment laws differ in different parts of the UK. They’re quite strict here (although frequently broken).

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:23

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:20

they would be the reason she got the job. With no experience. So, if it’s true they broke employment laws. Where I live that is a crime. Maybe it isn’t true. How would I know. And employment laws differ in different parts of the UK. They’re quite strict here (although frequently broken).

The trouble is it's very hard to prove that someone got a job because of who they knew rather than what they knew.

Other than lack of experience, she must hold the relevant qualifications for the role.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:23

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:20

they would be the reason she got the job. With no experience. So, if it’s true they broke employment laws. Where I live that is a crime. Maybe it isn’t true. How would I know. And employment laws differ in different parts of the UK. They’re quite strict here (although frequently broken).

I only know what happens here frequently even though it is a ‘crime’. Relatives of senior people get jobs that they are not qualified for. I’ve no idea if IB is in that category. But given the scenario i guess it could be true. Would be definitely worth looking into. Similarly Dr Beth Upton appears to have extreme privilege and support from the top. Why on earth is that? I wouldn’t know.

FannyCann · 16/07/2025 21:24

I cannot wait until the NHS has to comply with the SC judgment and ensure its staff have genuine single-sex facilities again.

Single sex facilities (with or without added gender adherents) are in short supply in my experience (which admittedly doesn’t involve extensive tours of hospitals up and down the country). If they aren’t already gender neutral spaces that will surely be the way trusts will go despite the law requiring provision single sex spaces.

My hospital has created a new ITU by repurposing three adjoining wards. I sometimes have cause to go up there, and naturally am interested to see what changing facilities have been provided - the SP case was ongoing whilst the works were done, I think it completed in April and the staff mostly wear scrubs - they need proper changing facilities.

As far as I have been able to observe there is an entrance corridor with various rooms on each side - offices, kitchen, relatives room. There are two doors opposite each other marked “Staff only” with a key pad. One has a frosted glass panel. This one had been left propped open by the cleaner as I passed so I nipped in for a look. I wish I could post pictures but that would be a little too identifying. I can’t tell you how shocked I was by this room. It’s a narrow L shaped room with a block of 15 lockers (small square, stacked five high) and next to the lockers is a loo. Literally right next to the lockers! Opposite the loo in the L part is a spacious shower.
So only one person at a time can use the space to change or access lockers which must be very trying at busy shift changeover times. Having the loo directly next to the lockers absolutely disgusts me. Eww. Splash back anyone? And bending down to loo height to access the lockers directly next to it? I’m not sure about hygiene regulations but this can’t be acceptable surely?

I don’t know if the room opposite is a mirror image or similar layout or if there are any other changing rooms I haven’t spotted. But take it from me - staff comfort and convenience are VERY low priority. But hey ho. Anyone can use it whatever their sex or gender. 👍

NotAtMyAge · 16/07/2025 21:26

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:23

The trouble is it's very hard to prove that someone got a job because of who they knew rather than what they knew.

Other than lack of experience, she must hold the relevant qualifications for the role.

What are the relevant qualifications for the post? Are they laid down anywhere?

borntobequiet · 16/07/2025 21:26

PronounssheRa · 16/07/2025 16:42

IBs evidence has reaffirmed my belief that DEI jobs in there current form in public services are utterly pointless.

IB knows nothing about equality law, appears to have no interest in equality for ALL staff hence her disinterest in the demographics of staff (religious beliefs etc). All she seems to do is copy and and paste from other documents and provides vague advice with no contemperious notes or records, then passes the buck to HR.

There is no purpose or benefit to the role which is paid more than nurses and paramedics.

Perhaps this is one role that might be outsourced to AI without any loss of knowledge or integrity.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:27

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 21:23

The trouble is it's very hard to prove that someone got a job because of who they knew rather than what they knew.

Other than lack of experience, she must hold the relevant qualifications for the role.

People at the top can obviously write the qualifications to suit the person they want to get the job. If she has a relative that is very senior in that trust then that can be what has happened. But yes, obviously, could be argued that IB and BU were absolutely right for their jobs and in BU case should be defended to the death (of anyone who got in their way). Where I live nepotism is rightly very legislated against. But still happens all the time.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2025 21:28

NebulousDogWhistleIsReality · 16/07/2025 21:04

I just went back for a quick look and I counted 3 if you include the TW are different from other men bit which I do. I've highlighted them in bold and underlined the ones I found, but I just skim read so may have missed some.

[missed]
NC men generally stronger/more of a threat to women.
IB When you talk c tw and tm risk is significantly less.
NC You are saying men in general are greater threat to women than vice
IB TW are different from other men in level of threat they present Less of a risk, except for Isla Bryson

NC Any other reasons to let him use the cr
IB Inclusion in workplace. Art 8.
NC Anything more concrete?
IB Not sure why what I said wasn't concrete.
NC Would providing him with a private space to change would have provided him with dignity etc
IB Asking him to to do wouldn't uphold his dignity

They were the ones I spotted too.

Those slips say a lot.

Comtesse · 16/07/2025 21:31

ThatCyanCat · 16/07/2025 20:38

You know you're batshit insane when you make HR look sensible.

Harsh but fair…..

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:31

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:27

People at the top can obviously write the qualifications to suit the person they want to get the job. If she has a relative that is very senior in that trust then that can be what has happened. But yes, obviously, could be argued that IB and BU were absolutely right for their jobs and in BU case should be defended to the death (of anyone who got in their way). Where I live nepotism is rightly very legislated against. But still happens all the time.

I would just be very interested to know if either of them have relatives that are senior in that Trust. Surely that is relevant to all of this. For IB it would explain why she got that job with no experience and for BU why HE is being so supported against all logic.

Helleofabore · 16/07/2025 21:31

nauticant · 16/07/2025 20:48

Unfortunately I've had to start a new thread now. My broadband's gone very wonky and at the same time trying to access MN is giving me a message from Cloudflare that I'm being rate limited and they're preventing me accessing this site. I've broken through just now but that problem might return.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5374921-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-29

I have been getting the cloudfare message quite a few times over the the past 6 weeks.

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:31

Namechangedtocomment · 16/07/2025 21:31

I would just be very interested to know if either of them have relatives that are senior in that Trust. Surely that is relevant to all of this. For IB it would explain why she got that job with no experience and for BU why HE is being so supported against all logic.

It would give more evidence to the corruption that is at the heart of this.

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