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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

1000 replies

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:09

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

OP posts:
Thread gallery
27
SternJoyousBee · 16/07/2025 12:40

DrSpartacularsMagnificentOctopus · 16/07/2025 12:28

Nice bit of retconning by IB when she refers to respecting GC beliefs Hmm

I struggle to believe that happened.

Did ED mention being told anything about respecting GC viewed in her witness testimony? I only recall guff about kindness and compassion for poor trans folk

Lunde · 16/07/2025 12:41

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 12:36

Going off TT, I don't think IB comes across too badly. She is aware they didn't have a policy around trans staff members and was involved in a working group to discuss creating one. That included reviewing policy documents from other health boards, but the conclusion was to wait for the universal "One for Scotland" template rather than cobbling together their own based on documents from other health boards.

When asked for advice following the datix, she referred onward to HR rather than passing comment herself. So far, so professional.

Did want to point out at that the meetings she attended, not everyone could attend at short notice. I feel this is a common problem in clinical settings: clinical staff with patient contact can't attend a short notice meeting because it is in their clinic time or they are required to be on their wards as part of core staffing numbers. So decisions that impact clinical policy/practice can be made by predominantly non-clinical staff, with no practice experience of how that will work in the clinical environment.

I think her difficulty lies in the fact that she cobbled together an informal policy that was implemented in Fife - not after taking legal advice - but by copying and pasting what other places were doing.

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 12:41

Who was questioning IB there?

Jimmyneutronsforehead · 16/07/2025 12:42

Thank you for the new thread. Hectic morning so hopefully going to catch up soon

ThreeWordHarpy · 16/07/2025 12:42

From TT:

JR - any risk assessments undertaken on this policy
IB - we didn't have a policy, so not way to do a risk assessment

Surely this is completely arse about face? You do a risk assessment and one of the first things you identify is that there is no policy so you need one pronto?

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:43

My apologies for getting uppity on the last thread! I think the mornings excitement got a bit much 😬😆.

Completely appreciate that people were concerned about observers being pulled.🥰

I'm happy to continue cutting and pasting this pm. Will have to stop at 3pm though, so if it's useful, could someone take over after that?

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:45

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 12:36

Going off TT, I don't think IB comes across too badly. She is aware they didn't have a policy around trans staff members and was involved in a working group to discuss creating one. That included reviewing policy documents from other health boards, but the conclusion was to wait for the universal "One for Scotland" template rather than cobbling together their own based on documents from other health boards.

When asked for advice following the datix, she referred onward to HR rather than passing comment herself. So far, so professional.

Did want to point out at that the meetings she attended, not everyone could attend at short notice. I feel this is a common problem in clinical settings: clinical staff with patient contact can't attend a short notice meeting because it is in their clinic time or they are required to be on their wards as part of core staffing numbers. So decisions that impact clinical policy/practice can be made by predominantly non-clinical staff, with no practice experience of how that will work in the clinical environment.

But as a grade 7 DEI professional, is it enough to say 'I was waiting to see what everyone else was doing' when the law was clear?

(Genuine question - am wondering whether the general chaos in Scotland is a mitigating circumstance for the board?)

cigarsmokingwoman · 16/07/2025 12:47

As a deaf person who uses stenographers at work to follow conversations, I love NC even more for being respectful for how tiring their typing can be. So many pepole dont bother stopping for breaks. Thanks Naomi (if you're around). I'm sure they really appreciated your valuing their work.
to the PP who asked : yep there's always a court stenographer as many of mine often do court work.

Cailleach1 · 16/07/2025 12:48

Just commenting on something IB said from TT.

They didn’t have an official policy, but nevertheless (and unofficially) used cobbled bit of other policies they found online, and in their ‘trans deifying’ (my take) fortnightly meetings. To me, IB seemed to be saying they were having their cake and also eating it. They didn’t have to carry out an equality impact assessment because they didn’t have an official policy, yet they were happily using cogged policies from other places.

That can’t be a get out of jail free card. They were using policies from other places on which they had no idea as to their legality. And happily not carrying out any equality impact statement as to these cogged policies they were using.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 16/07/2025 12:49

I think there needs to be a review of DEI roles across the board. They're not HR professionals and they're not legal experts. Why the bell are they being expected to write policies and give what is essentially HR advice?

OhBuggerandArse · 16/07/2025 12:49

cogged? (great word, just haven't heard it before)

Harassedevictee · 16/07/2025 12:51

WRT policies for HR including DEI, its a whole industry because every organisation thinks they are special and so a bog standard off the shelf policy won’t do.

Think about all the policy areas that have a statutory entitlement and on top you add occupational annual leave, sick leave, mat leave, shared parental leave etc. All policies start with the statutory entitlements and eligibility criteria. How different can a policy be. In this case changing rooms and toilets.

The “One for Scotland” model works but you need really good policy writers who understand the legal basis, case law as well as horizontal and vertical integration of policies. This gives you a policy that is about 80% suitable for all employers. The 20% is allowing the individual organisations to adapt for their business and work force. Again you need the expertise and knowledge to do this.

You would be amazed how many policy writers don’t think about pay, payroll and pensions.

However, in IBs case she had a live EDI issue and if there was no policy she or HR needed to give written guidance. Doing it verbally is classic slopey shoulders I.e. can’t pin it on me.

BettyBooper · 16/07/2025 12:51

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 16/07/2025 12:49

I think there needs to be a review of DEI roles across the board. They're not HR professionals and they're not legal experts. Why the bell are they being expected to write policies and give what is essentially HR advice?

Absolutely. It's the tail wagging the dog.

This is an absolute shit show.

RobinEllacotStrike · 16/07/2025 12:52

Michael Foran popped onto screen briefly during the break

<Stamps Bingo Card>

spannasaurus · 16/07/2025 12:52

cigarsmokingwoman · 16/07/2025 12:47

As a deaf person who uses stenographers at work to follow conversations, I love NC even more for being respectful for how tiring their typing can be. So many pepole dont bother stopping for breaks. Thanks Naomi (if you're around). I'm sure they really appreciated your valuing their work.
to the PP who asked : yep there's always a court stenographer as many of mine often do court work.

When there was the complaint about Tribunal Tweets after the first Tribunal sitting it was stated that there was no official record of the proceedings so I would assume that meant no stenographers for the first sitting

nauticant · 16/07/2025 12:53

Needspaceforlego · 16/07/2025 12:41

Who was questioning IB there?

Jane Russell KC, counsel for NHS Fife and Dr Upton.

So that's the defence with the narrative they've spun. Now we get the really interesting part of Naomi Cunningham pulling it apart.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 16/07/2025 12:53

CriticalCondition · 16/07/2025 12:35

TBF it requires very intense concentration to get down every word accurately. If it wasn't lunchtime I expect there would have been a short break of just a few minutes.

And given that it's legal stuff, I can imagine it has to be pin point accurate in case of appeals etc.

IslandsAround · 16/07/2025 12:53

There is a whole missing governance piece here - as @GargoylesofBeelzebub says - why is this person writing a policy that has HR and legal ramifications. Where was their input or advice or check? How did this fit in their job description? Why was this legal task assigned to someone without appropriate skills or training? Why send a draft policy about patients when it was a situation presented as a conflict between employees?

Very much agree lack of record keeping is dodgy. Someone comes to DEI lead about discriminatory/ abusive situation - advice should have been in writing and notes taken.

But also nothing to do with a DEI lead - it was a HR / legal issue. The Dr went to her for a sympathetic ear rather than the correct answer.

ClawedButler · 16/07/2025 12:55

Oh I love seeing NC in action.

One minute I feel sorry for IB, she's being scapegoated and was clearly out of her depth. Then I remember she took the job, pocketed the salary, and threw her weight around in a spirit of smug self-righteousness, and all my sympathy evaporates.

CantHoldMeDown · 16/07/2025 12:56

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

PinkDD · 16/07/2025 12:56

ThatPithySheep · 16/07/2025 12:38

That is the cost of their external legal advice only, and only to date. Not the cost of the internal lawyers, or the staff who have been involved, or the ridiculous disciplinary panel etc.

have just read this article - mentioning that NHS Fife have been warned not to make a scapegoat of Bumba - and this little snippet is at the bottom.

It is only going to cost NHS Fife 25 grand.

However, it is only liable for the first £25,000 of the litigation costs, with the remaining money paid by a scheme set up to protect health boards.

archive link to Telegraph article.

http://archive.today/zR3cy

InvisibleDragon · 16/07/2025 12:57

Lunde · 16/07/2025 12:41

I think her difficulty lies in the fact that she cobbled together an informal policy that was implemented in Fife - not after taking legal advice - but by copying and pasting what other places were doing.

Agree this is less good. I think there was minimal cobbling though. From looking at TT, I think the working group reviewed lots of other policies and decided not to make their own but wait for the OfS one.

When asked for advice regarding CR for a new trans staff member, she says she referenced Fife's patient policy and the NHS Highland policy to say that it might be discriminatory to not allow CR use based on GI. (JR referenced a bunch of other trust policies and IB said those weren't the ones she referred to, which I think was JR being confused.)

I'll be interested to see if there is evidence in the cross examination that she was actually less measured than this.

rebmacesrevda · 16/07/2025 12:57

Merrymouse · 16/07/2025 12:45

But as a grade 7 DEI professional, is it enough to say 'I was waiting to see what everyone else was doing' when the law was clear?

(Genuine question - am wondering whether the general chaos in Scotland is a mitigating circumstance for the board?)

A band 7 clinician would be held to a higher standard because they are professionally registered, and they have to be able to answer for their actions. Without a professional registration to protect, IB can basically do what she likes and avoid accountability.

ThatPithySheep · 16/07/2025 12:58

@PinkDD It will cost them £25,000 this year, but their contributions to that central fund will go up to cover the costs. It's not an insurance scheme, it is just to allow NHS trusts to cover legal costs without needing to hold lots of funds themselves. It all comes out of the NHS Scotland / Fife budget at some point

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