NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #28

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Thread 1: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5186317-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse
Thread 2: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5267591-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-thread-2
Thread 3: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268347-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-3
Thread 4: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5268942-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-4
Thread 5: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269149-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-5
Thread 6: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5269635-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-6
Thread 7: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5270365-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-7
Thread 8: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271511-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-8
Thread 9: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271596-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-9
Thread 10: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5271723-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-10
Thread 11: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272046-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-11
Thread 12: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272276-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-12
Thread 13: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272398-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-13
Thread 14: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5272939-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-14
Thread 15: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273119-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-15
Thread 16: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273636-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-16
Thread 17: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5273827-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-17
Thread 18: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274332-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-18
Thread 19: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5274571-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-19
Thread 20: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5275782-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-20
Thread 21: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5276925-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-21
Thread 22: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5280174-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-22
Thread 23: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5285690-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-23
Thread 24: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5301295-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-24
Thread 25: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5318518-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-25
Thread 26: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5335861-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-26
Thread 27: www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5372582-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-27

Yes, we (briefly) contemplated disclosing their 'complaints' but then realised they could get us on contempt. We did find the Mumsnet thread really useful to support our recollection of what was said. Between us - the more leading the questions, the more difficult to tweet. JR & DU were a struggle to report because she asked long questions and he gave long rambling answers, argued with the Judge and Naomi. Sorry to whine, the whisky is kicking in.

I’m already a Margarita down

And we all love you for it, nauticant. 💐🌹

Why did Tangfastic's post get deleted? I mean, it was totally inaccurate but if that was a reason for being modded there'd be an awful lot more holey threads!

Oh God so you did! That was forgotten by me in the mists of time!

bet Hoardasurass is relieved!

Oh no. Has it gone?

And I'm so grateful that you did

Why do you think I disappear as soon as starting a new Bluestocking thread gets discussed?

I'm not getting caught out by what seems like such an innocent thing!!

Don't know if this has already been answered as I'm still catching up, but no, she doesn't need a witness for that. She just makes the legal argument, quoting any precedents that support her. If she goes down that route, NC is likely to similarly put in a legal argument that JR is wrong. The tribunal will then decide. If they have any sense, they will decide that JR is wrong. As far as I can see, the SC ruling is crystal clear and leaves no room for doubt.

Maybe because Operation Let Them Speak is working too well, and its not liked!

But yes, atm I would prefer if many of these posts were not reported and were left to stand as they are informative.

My guess is that Tangfastic reported their own post and asked for it to be taken down. It's really rare for the regulars on this board to report a post.

Please, no apologies needed.

I'm astounded that she didn't know about stonewall. Would it not have been part of her job to apply for / renew equality charter mark awards and things?!

"A highly qualified doctor - who happens to be trans

Yes. And isn't it incredible @Tangfastic71 that such a highly qualified male medical professional is under the impression he is a biological female. And also has so little respect for his female patients that he would treat them without their explicit consent.
All those years of training and still struggles with basic biology.

Agreed. It was an opinion, however controversial or not, that I’m sure didn’t go against guidelines.
I may have found it not in keeping with my own views but I hope it wasn’t reported as something that was against guidelines.

It was a Haiku

There was a post earlier in this thread that suggested funding has been obtained by the claimant? to obtain a transcript of the hearing.

Indeed. I'm rolling my eyes at myself for not connecting that with the fact that they referred to the stenographer many times during today's hearing.

There was discussion - I think it was at the end of Part 1 - that the Cs had funding and were planning on getting a transcript. It had to do with making sure there was room in the hearing room for them.

Ethics and Consent are also taught as part of medical training....

@Justabaker According to these threads you missed Upton saying he was a biological woman. I dont imagine Fife complained about that one though.

@Justkeepingplatesspinning and she was a human rights expert who didnt know what Article 8 was. Only thing she did seem to "know" about was that a man wanting to access a female changing room was whatever he claimed to feel like.

@ CunningLinguist2 · Today 15:18
Dr B Upton's name is Beth. If we're naming the other parties, let's also use her first name, please.

Did you notice the thread title? It includes the name Dr Beth Upton. Even if we weren't referring to everyone else by their initials most of the time, it would get very repetitious to keep repeating a name that is at the top of every page. That's enough of a clue to help people work out who DBU or DU is. Enough for anyone with normal adult-level reading comprehension skills (I wonder sometimes about some of our younger visitors).

JKRowling has tweeted -

Gender identity ideology is an unfalsifiable, quasi-religious belief system that demands absurdities of its adherents. Thus we see perfectly intelligent people pretending they’re not sure which sex they are, in the belief that this makes them virtuous.

That was the bit that made me lol. Junior doctors on rotation know far less about the specialty they rotate into than the nurses working there - Upton would know far less than Sandie Peggie for sure.

Plus, since doctors are the only NHS employees not on the agenda for change pay bands, Upton will have been paid less than Isla Bumba.... 😬

@DeanElderberry not just the thread title but the actual post that CL2 is whining about actual does mention the full name.

….but again, why allow accuracy to get in the way of a scolding.

Someone seems rather cross at the exposure of idiocy going on in the tribunal. Oh dear how sad never mind.