Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 11

[ickky]

The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal please choose a non inflammatory/offensive name, everyone can see it in the chat - This is a court room, please behave accordingly.

The court chat function is there for official court purposes, not for observers, please don't use it unless you have a technical issue.

On the first page underneath where you put your screen name, select the video and mic that are not crossed out (top option), this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.
You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)

To come?

Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, to continue on 25th May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge.
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing

so she agrees that what was going on at the workshop was really bad but at the same time she didn't believe it happened? I'm confused

Just 1 question from Stonewall?!!! Are they paying them by the word spoken?

A question for the witness from IO! First in ages.

EJ’s face is a picture. She’s probably bad at poker.

As CM explained Ameanstreakamilewide, because no one can say for sure what the workshop was really about, it might have been to teach transwomen how to speak in a productive way to lesbians who, unprompted, were showing an interest in allow penis into their sex lives.

I bet she wishes she had a red hot one.

Can I just say, as a bisexual woman, that any woman who wants to introduce penis play into her sex life is NOT a lesbian.

‘As CM explained Ameanstreakamilewide, because no one can say for sure what the workshop was really about, it might have been to teach transwomen how to speak in a productive way to lesbians who, unprompted, were showing an interest in allow penis into their sex lives.’

But then what barriers would need to be overcome?

Calling someone discriminatory for not sleeping with you is the very essence of coercion

Yep! Abusive, coercive, bully - exactly describes that type of person.

I can't see that the extra technical hoops being jumped through to "prevent" download are serving any real purpose and they're still preventing people having access to the material.

That is confusingly written - I mean that the anti-download restrictions which are unworkable anyway are today preventing people from accessing the material at all.

I'm willing my meeting to finish so I can get back to this!

My heart was pounding listening this morning. I'm not a lesbian but I am utterly appalled on their behalf at what is being said here!

Someone needs to get a quieter scroll wheel on their mouse.

Biologically male is fine to say and so is male bodied according to this witness.

EJ: says Stonewall complaint was about Morgan Page being described as male-bodied. Did she consider whether that was valid?

CM says that was unobjectionable. Accepts MP is biologically male.

'Man' is a 'gratuitously offensive term,' now??

AH to dross

cross😅

Pipe down RMW 😉

Exactly this. If you’re a woman who is happy to welcome penises into her sex life, you’re bisexual (or pan, I suppose).

So CMcG isn't completely stonewashed.
Male bodied to referred to TW is now considered to be a transphobic term isn't it?

Freudian slip 😂

But then what barriers would need to be overcome?

It could be worries by the lesbian that she would be letting down lesbianism in general tabbycatstripy and thus risk criticism from her fellow lesbians.

I don't make the rules, I'm just wondering how CM is reasoning.

Hochhauser looks so conflicted.

CM all done now.

Next: Mr Wainwright.

Even if TWAW the right analogy would be ADOS women who did not want to sleep or have relationships with white left wing men. A reasonable workshop would then be explaining to these men that the reason why they are rejected by these women is not prejudice but the impact of years and years of racism, violence and trauma. That these men shouldn't feel rejected or unvindicated (this is white frajility) but just accept that no means no