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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
Rightsraptor · 24/07/2025 12:07

Ah, short break only.

rebmacesrevda · 24/07/2025 12:07

"my job was to do lx quickly as possible"

And how's that going for you?

irredeemablyperfidious · 24/07/2025 12:07

Rightsraptor · 24/07/2025 12:00

Is this lunch or a short break?

I couldn't tell, but at 12:07 everyone other than the Panel is in their seats so I assume it's a short break.

Edit - apologies, cross-posted.

prh47bridge · 24/07/2025 12:08

Appalonia · 24/07/2025 11:46

This was about 2 years ago now, so may be too late?

Unfortunately, you are probably right. The 3 month time limit will only be extended if it was not reasonably practicable to make the claim within that timeframe (not being able to get legal representation doesn't count - you are supposed to be able to represent yourself in an ET), or the tribunal thinks it is just and equitable to extend the time. Whilst it is not entirely impossible, it is unlikely she will be able to take action now.

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 12:09

It may have already been posted on this thread ut the University of Edinburgh have previously deemed 'avoidance' (I.e. waiting outside a changing room or leaving) as a microaggression in advice given to staff and students.

LastTrainsEast · 24/07/2025 12:09

TwoLoonsAndASprout · 24/07/2025 11:16

I shall leave this here for people to draw their own conclusions:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Al5wW8I8In0

(give it a second to be approved…)

Well I certainly did.

rosiejaune · 24/07/2025 12:10

TheKeatingFive · 24/07/2025 11:51

Presumably a midwife is at least in attendance.

Wouldn't they supply these details?

I don't know if community midwives have access to the same system the hospital midwives do (and whether this varies by trust anyway). But even if so, no, not everyone has an HCP of some kind at the birth.

Appalonia · 24/07/2025 12:11

LastTrainsEast · 24/07/2025 12:09

Well I certainly did.

Oh God I remember those appalling adverts!

Lemonz · 24/07/2025 12:11

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 12:09

It may have already been posted on this thread ut the University of Edinburgh have previously deemed 'avoidance' (I.e. waiting outside a changing room or leaving) as a microaggression in advice given to staff and students.

It's so sinister.

NeedToChangeName · 24/07/2025 12:12

SionnachRuadh · 24/07/2025 11:02

I've actually heard it said seriously - this is in public sector settings following Stonewall law - that if you enter the ladies, see a TW and immediately leave, that could be an act of discrimination. So the only way to be safe is to comply with what the TW wants.

It will take a long time to shift the public sector.

In that situation, I guess you could just quickly wash your hands and grab a tissue, pretend that's why you went in?

But all this is nonsense

maltravers · 24/07/2025 12:12

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 12:09

It may have already been posted on this thread ut the University of Edinburgh have previously deemed 'avoidance' (I.e. waiting outside a changing room or leaving) as a microaggression in advice given to staff and students.

In a policy no doubt written by helpful TRAs like DU and their allies like KS. All this talk of “training” makes me think of dogs being trained to jump through hoops. Women’s role in this no doubt.

PrettyDamnCosmic · 24/07/2025 12:13

BeLemonNow · 24/07/2025 12:07

@NImumconfused Yes it's NHS Scotland Bullying and Harassment Policy, I presume holds in Fife. Sandie genuinely thinks this is something maybe she can sort out with her colleague.

https://workforce.nhs.scot/policies/bullying-and-harassment-policy-overview/

From that policy document...

If you think this applies to you, you are encouraged to:

  • access the self-reflection tools and examples of bullying behaviours and harassing behaviours
  • keep a personal record detailing any incidents, dates, times, witnesses and informal action taken
  • determine if early resolution approaches could help resolve the situation:
  • Speak to the person to inform them that their behaviour is unacceptable
  • Write to the individual
  • Speak with a manager to gain support to approach the other party
  • Supported conversation
  • Mediation

Examples of Harassing Behaviour | NHS Scotland

This tool gives examples of harassing behaviours that are unacceptable in the workplace.

https://workforce.nhs.scot/supporting-documents/tool/bullying-and-harassment-policy-examples-of-harassing-behaviour/

BezMills · 24/07/2025 12:13

I've made a hang sammich but I know if I take a bit TT will start up again and there will be flourmageddon on my keyboard.

TerrifyingTinyNurse · 24/07/2025 12:14

i just cannot believe this is Fife’s own defence FFS.

Reddit users do make me laugh. My terfy TerrifyingTinyNurse is probably more their demographic, so is she a young hag? Is there a name for that? hagling?

incidentslly, obviously she never ever gives any details but her last (long) shift involved more than two horrific deaths and multiple crash calls. she did lots of running for the crash cart(?). And then she spent two hours after her long shift had offfically finished to make sure her paperwork was correct, and to go to the rooms to see again the families of the deceased she had seen earlier, that were still at the hospital. just simply to show support and if they wanted to talk about anything. she is far and away the kindest most empathetic person i know. appreciate I am very biasedSmile, but the cards etc she has received from patients and families show the facts. Terrifying yes when needed but also kind when needed. and yes unfortunately she has “better things to do” (and is then too knackered) than be posting on MN, you know, like trying to save people’s lives, inc theirs if they needed it. it’s her job, it’s what she lives for. she doesn’t live to have to deal with dicks, literal and metaphorical, in her single sex spaces after she has done a 14hr day - the hateful fucking terfy hagling that she is!

SionnachRuadh · 24/07/2025 12:15

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 12:09

It may have already been posted on this thread ut the University of Edinburgh have previously deemed 'avoidance' (I.e. waiting outside a changing room or leaving) as a microaggression in advice given to staff and students.

I know nobody's being sent to the gulags, but it does remind me of those Ismail Kadare novels about Communist Albania where people are in constant terror of being caught yawning or rollling their eyes when the Leader is speaking.

Volpina · 24/07/2025 12:15

BezMills - the Fifer commentary is priceless.

lnks · 24/07/2025 12:16

Fife know they will lose, but they still want to do as much damage to Sandie’s reputation as possible whilst they have the opportunity.

The false racism/homophobia
allegations are purely about further punishing her. Fife are determined that Sandie won’t get away with standing up for herself

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 12:17

PrettyDamnCosmic · 24/07/2025 12:13

From that policy document...

If you think this applies to you, you are encouraged to:

  • access the self-reflection tools and examples of bullying behaviours and harassing behaviours
  • keep a personal record detailing any incidents, dates, times, witnesses and informal action taken
  • determine if early resolution approaches could help resolve the situation:
  • Speak to the person to inform them that their behaviour is unacceptable
  • Write to the individual
  • Speak with a manager to gain support to approach the other party
  • Supported conversation
  • Mediation

I remember the bullying policy in my workplace and it was bonkers. It wasn't about what was actually happening but what you felt.
So if I you felt someone was bullying then that made it so.
For example, if someone didn't smile at you and you felt upset by that, they were therefore bullying you.
I find that utterly ridiculous. I'm not obliged to smile at anyone every 2 minutes, and I could be concentrating on my work and not giving them a second thought.
But if that person said I was a bully, then I was.

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:17

Oh ffs JR

Harassedevictee · 24/07/2025 12:17

JR objecting to pronouns.

nauticant · 24/07/2025 12:17

Naughty NC used proper-sex pronouns in a long chat and AG automatically followed. JR is now annoyed about this and is complaining.

Basically, JR is now trying to bring NC to heel in using preferred pronouns by referring to some guidance.

OP posts:
Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 12:17

JR whining about NC misgendering.

Is that all she's got?

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 12:18

JR complaining about NS misgendering

But weren't they already given permission to call Upton he/man ?

rebmacesrevda · 24/07/2025 12:18

Waitwhat23 · 24/07/2025 12:09

It may have already been posted on this thread ut the University of Edinburgh have previously deemed 'avoidance' (I.e. waiting outside a changing room or leaving) as a microaggression in advice given to staff and students.

Well there's many a time I've crossed the street to avoid a creep, so I must be microaggressive as fuck.

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