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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

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SerafinasGoose · 24/07/2025 12:18

KittyWilkinson · 24/07/2025 11:48

@SerafinasGoose I'm so very sorry that you went through that. I went through similar. The isolation and destruction of reputation is soul destroying. Flowers
There are so many of these people in workplaces. I'm so glad that Sandie has the support to expose what she has endured.

Women are punished twice.

Once for being women, and through that characteristic being vulnerable to sexual harassment and harm in the first place.

Twice for having the temerity to speak, on our own terms, about what we have endured at the hands of men, and for refusing to maintain a cloak of secrecy to protect them and their proclivities. I mean - the almighty cheek of us, eh?

This is why the TRA movement immediately made a beeline for Vancouver Rape Relief Centre, and why Sarah Summers is having to take Sussex Rape Crisis to court for their refusal to provide one - just one - single sex space free from the demographic who raped and traumatised her. She's been punished three times. Once through rape, once through rejection by the very facility set up to help survivors like her, thirdly via the long, gruelling legal process she's had to follow as her sole recourse to justice.

And don't even get me started on Mridul Wadhwa.

My heart breaks for Karen, the abuse victim at the centre of the Darlington nurses' case.

The vile TRA movement knows exactly what it's doing. A clear pattern emerges of targeting women for sexual abuse, or those who have already been victims, then accusing us of 'weaponising our trauma'. Isn't it striking just how similar the underlying tenets of these cases are?

This is not 'trans' rights activism. It's something else entirely. And what I really want to know is how many more of these cases - which women are almost exclusively winning in an almost unprecedented legal sense - it's going to take for that recognition to sink in.

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:18

I thought this was agreed in the feb hearing?

Rightsraptor · 24/07/2025 12:18

Wasn't this pronoun stuff decided way back?

TerrierCollector · 24/07/2025 12:18

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 12:17

I remember the bullying policy in my workplace and it was bonkers. It wasn't about what was actually happening but what you felt.
So if I you felt someone was bullying then that made it so.
For example, if someone didn't smile at you and you felt upset by that, they were therefore bullying you.
I find that utterly ridiculous. I'm not obliged to smile at anyone every 2 minutes, and I could be concentrating on my work and not giving them a second thought.
But if that person said I was a bully, then I was.

Absolutely ridiculous. It just makes malicious complaints so much easier to get away with. I must say, all of this mess has made me far more grateful that I'm self-employed.

battymaggot · 24/07/2025 12:18

Sorry if this gas already been mentioned but is else noticing a new condition/ syndrome?

I'm calling it ' Catch Up Anxiety Syndrome ' or CUAS . I play read n scroll for all it's worth on these threads, enjoying our wims' humour n sense as I valiantly push on trying to pull level.
Just when I'm nearly there, boom! I need to pee/put the kettle on/ do stuff.

Aaagh! Nooooo I fall from ' phew , only 5 pages to go' to ' jaysus I'm 2 threads behind' and full blown CUAS hits me.

And so it goes.
Support group anyone?
It's all worth it though.

wantmorenow · 24/07/2025 12:19

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:17

Oh ffs JR

Literally what I am muttering here

BezMills · 24/07/2025 12:19

From TT

Welcome back to Part 3 of the morning session on DAY 7 of the July hearing of Sandie Peggie v Fife Health Board and Dr Upton.

Angela Glancy who led the (second) investigation (ix) continues on the witness stand.

Find previous reporting on our substack

[HEARING RESUMES 12:11] NC - I'm going to ask a few Qs about ix now. So looking at email top of page from DU to u. U have contacted him about meeting 26th April and he asks if u want his full statement including Xmas eve incident. We see u talk about dates but dont answer About more detail. Why is that?

AG - actually im unsure but I had another statement sent to me as well. Full statement
NC - u said in chief u received in June.
AG - I dont know own why - must be an oversight

Fifer : must it aye? "mibbes aye mibbes naw, caw caw went the hoodie craw" Naebdy else mind ay that ane? Mibbe jist ma school like ken.

NC - Looking back at DU email 17th April. His offer of more detail [reads] It sounds from that that he thinks there are 2 versions of his story in boards possession?

Fifer : At LEAST

AG - cant answer that - i knew 2 statements
NC - this is part of your ix with DU and u do accept his offer of more Detail amd he tells u of two more occasions including when SP withdrew from CR. It seems in this ix u still have seen complaint document.
AG - yes
NC - wasnt it obvious there was something u hadn't seen at this point
AG - he, Beth gave me an account at the time

Fifer : story's had mair edits than thon time they tried tae make a Beano anthology an realised aboot hauf the stories fi the 70s were racist as aw fuck!

MyrtleLion · 24/07/2025 12:19

Misgendering

TT 1217

(NC) Detail amd he tells u of two more occasions including when SP withdrew from CR. It seems in this ix u still have seen complaint document.
AG - yes
NC - wasnt it obvious there was something u hadn't seen at this point
AG - he, Beth gave me an account at the time

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 12:19

lnks · 24/07/2025 12:16

Fife know they will lose, but they still want to do as much damage to Sandie’s reputation as possible whilst they have the opportunity.

The false racism/homophobia
allegations are purely about further punishing her. Fife are determined that Sandie won’t get away with standing up for herself

I genuinely don’t believe that Fife see this case as a massive loss.

I would even place a bet that if SP wins and receives a payout, the NHS will put out a statement saying it’s a waste of public funds and this will impact the service the NHS can provide to the public. They’ll paint SP out to be undeserving of the compensation. They’ve done things like that before in other tribunals.

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:19

The witness's are not confused by NC's pronoun use.

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 12:19

Oh do fuck off dear

maltravers · 24/07/2025 12:19

lnks · 24/07/2025 12:16

Fife know they will lose, but they still want to do as much damage to Sandie’s reputation as possible whilst they have the opportunity.

The false racism/homophobia
allegations are purely about further punishing her. Fife are determined that Sandie won’t get away with standing up for herself

I think it’s about trying to win the battle for public opinion and provide copy for your side of the press to help do this.

CriticalCondition · 24/07/2025 12:19

I bet JR has had this in mind for days and has been just waiting for the moment.

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 12:20

NC - wasnt it obvious there was something u hadn't seen at this point
AG - he, Beth gave me an account at the time

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 12:20

Misgendering creating a hostile environment. Confusing the witness.

Ffs they're already confused if they think he's a woman.

Get the fuck out of here with your stupid pronouns.

Judge brilliant lol

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:20

😂at NC NO

Boiledbeetle · 24/07/2025 12:20

Judge asking nc is she wants time to reflect!!

No!

chilling19 · 24/07/2025 12:20

do you want time to reflect? NC - no thank you.

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 12:20

from herALD
12:19pm
We are back after a quick break.
Jane Russell KC has interjected to Naomi Cunningham's "repeated" misgendering of Dr Upton.
She says this is confusing for witnesses who refer to Dr Upton by their preferred pronouns.
Ms Russell asks the judge about the fairness of the proceedings of misgendering Dr Upton.
She said it is causing offence to witnesses and said it is confusing for them given they are not used to Dr Upton being referred to in this way.
These concerns should be noted and she urges Ms Cunningham to reflect on the comments.

GCITC · 24/07/2025 12:20

Judge: would you like time to reflect?
NC: no thank you Grin

BezMills · 24/07/2025 12:20

battymaggot · 24/07/2025 12:18

Sorry if this gas already been mentioned but is else noticing a new condition/ syndrome?

I'm calling it ' Catch Up Anxiety Syndrome ' or CUAS . I play read n scroll for all it's worth on these threads, enjoying our wims' humour n sense as I valiantly push on trying to pull level.
Just when I'm nearly there, boom! I need to pee/put the kettle on/ do stuff.

Aaagh! Nooooo I fall from ' phew , only 5 pages to go' to ' jaysus I'm 2 threads behind' and full blown CUAS hits me.

And so it goes.
Support group anyone?
It's all worth it though.

I get it because I miss aw the posts while I'm racing back n forrit daen ma c+p

Rightsraptor · 24/07/2025 12:21

The witnesses are not at all discombobulated by NC's correct pronoun use. They know exactly who we're talking about.

I'm glad NC didn't enter a battle on this.

wantmorenow · 24/07/2025 12:21

ickky · 24/07/2025 12:20

😂at NC NO

NC didn't even pause! Awesome and the first time I've laughed today :-)

LadyBracknellsHandbagg · 24/07/2025 12:21

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 12:18

JR complaining about NS misgendering

But weren't they already given permission to call Upton he/man ?

He Man Power GIF

I just read that as HeMan 😂

NebulousSupportPostcard · 24/07/2025 12:21

Misgendering at 12.16

JR objects and says NC is responsible for creating hostile environment.

She must be really scared of what NC is about to put to witness to waste time like this.

Hahahahaha J's exchange with NC is brilliant and hilarious. Will help bring 5* Netfilx ratings when inevitable dramatisation is released 😁

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