NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

Fuck
Ing
Hell

from herald
11:50am
We're moving on to the patient care allegations.
Ms Cunningham says these were discussed by HR on January 3 2024.
But the barrister said Ms Glancey told Ms Peggie in April 2024 that she was only investigating the Christmas Eve incident.
11:43am
Ms Glancey said she "tried her hardest" to get the investigation underway as quickly as possible.
Ms Cunningham asks whether the truth is that NHS Fife was determined to "punish" Ms Peggie.
Was the delay actually because they couldn't decide which charges to bring against Ms Peggie?
That is not the case, Ms Glancey said.

From TT

AG - I can reassure u that my job was to do lx quickly as possible
NC - Fair to get 1st hand accounts asap?
AG - yes
NC - already 2 months delay. Not sure if we heard about ur holiday but think u were away when GM asked u to do lx. U said coming back 14th April. Not on holiday Whole of March
AG - a week in March then last week March and first week April
NC - so at time u accepted - given how urgent it was - wouldn't it be better dealt with someone without substantial leave
AG - whether right decision i cant answer that
NC - [another page] Occupational Health (OH) report. Read it please. So that confirms she's fit to take part in process - another reason to get on?
AG - yes
NC - It would require someone to crack on as fast as possible
AG - yes bit I also have a full time job. I did read That report. Prior to seeing SP i spoke to Stuart Fraser to make it easier for SP to attend. I did feel i dealt with as quick as possible. Had to give notice and make sure had representation. I tried to make it easy as possible for SP
NC - first interaction 12th April. 6 weeks after appointed lx manager
AG - 3 of those weeks i was holiday
NC - only thing that made board got on with it was DP made a claim?
AG - claim and ET are 2 diff things. I tried to do as quick as possible despite constraints.
NC - Truth is the Board was determined to punish DP (SP?) for saying no to DU?
AG - no
NC - Reason for delay was u couldn't decide which charges to lay against SP, due to poor evidence?
AG - no
NC - indecision of charges wasnt causing delay?
AG - no
AG - Allegations were sent out to SP, I didnt add any after that.

NC - Move on to the patient care allegations. These were discussed by HR on 3rd Jan. Known about by board. Page 322.

NC - Discussions among HR officers on page 275. U would have been copied into. U have seen?
AG - only in the bundle

Fifer : oft, this one kid sair hurt Fife's case like comin aff a piece ae 1970s playgroon gear. Ironically the exact stuff that wid pit ye up the Vic.

NC - We see from 277. This is email to ann Hamilton who was supporting you. [Reads 'comparing to sex offender'] So these patient care allegations already live

AG - not with me
NC - in ur letter to SP 3rd April
AG - Lotties letter
NC - did u see this at the time?
AG - no
NC - u are only lxing Xmas eve incident at this time
AG - I didnt discuss with lottie

Fifer : Lottie has played a blinder so far, but we're no done playing Musical Chairs yet. Somebody is gonnae be left staunin when the music stops, wi nae place to pit thir erse. LM disnae hink it's her. She's a player. No her first Sunday School disco.

NC - so far u have let SP know u are only lxing Xmas eve incident?
AG - yes
NC - notified SP of 3 allegations
AG - no thats er ... sorry what were u saying...
NC - turn to 844 and u will see. That letter was never sent was it?
AG - I.. Im sure the EC admin would have sent
NC - email?
AG - post
NC - im suggesting it was never sent. U say that was sent?
AG - probably worth explaining. I sent my letters to EC admin and they pit in address a d they send letters out. I dont send them out personally
NC - so no personal knowledge it was sent

The Ring has just flashed one Orange light and gone dark again. The same Orange as on a Club Biscuit packet, or the orange face on a Rubiks Cube.

NC - You start that letter [reads 'attend lx meeting and allegations']. Look back at letter u say was sent on 15th may
AG : additional allegations yes

J - wait for question

Big Sond has perked up. Perhaps he saw The Ring flash in hes peripheral vision, perhaps not. But he's peering intently at the witness.

NC - [reads] if that had been sent wouldn't u expect the next letter to say something apologetic That goalposts had moved
AG - the first was described and explained on 12th April and then letter sent to SP 15th may theres 3 further allegations. Letter 19th says all allegations prev discussed
NC - but nothing about 'further to my letter of q5th may'?
AG -unsure why id do that

Fifer : unsure are ye, aye. You will be.

AG - all info has been discussed in previous letters
NC - SP is adamant she never received May letter. I suggest because it wasn't sent bc the Board was in turmoil about whether or not there was sufficient in patient care allegations to pin on SP?
AG - disagree

Fifer : Ange staunin up fer The Board here. As weel she micht. But they'll no reciprocate will they. That's no hoo this works and a' * kens it, ken?

NC - SP is adamant she never received May letter. I suggest because it wasn't sent bc the Board was in turmoil about whether or not there was sufficient in patient care allegations to pin on SP?
AG - disagree

Because the ones you have to stay in for are men.

That's going to be difficult though, given the total lack of any previous incidents on the record.

For example one of the defences to unfair dismissal claims, is to show that the employee would have been dismissed regardless even if the process was constructive.

But presumably that still requires evidence that the relevant behaviour that led to the dismissal took place. You can't just vaguely say "after 30 years of employment we decided we didn't like the cut of her jib".

Oh God NC seems to be nearing the point that Paula Vennells will be called as R3

from herald
11:56am
On May 15, Ms Glancey notifies Ms Peggie of additional allegations relating to patient safety concerns.
Ms Cunningham says Ms Peggie is adamant she did not receive this letter.
She suggests that the May letter wasn't sent and that the NHS Fife board was still in "turmoil" about whether there was enough evidence to pin the allegations on Ms Peggie.
Ms Glancey disagrees. She says the only people aware of the investigations are herself, Michelle Sinclair-Farrell who was assisting with the investigation and admin assistant.
She said she did not share any details with upper management.
But Ms Cunningham continues. She suggests that patient safety allegations would have been damaging for Dr Upton and Dr Searle.
Ms Glancey said: "Absolutely no one higher up told me what to do."

NC - are u saying u were making the decisions? Noone higher telling u what to do
AG - yes noone telling me what to do. My role was determine all evidence and then what I've found. These allegations came from me and id not discussed with leadership team

Gosh that's brave!

Uh-oh.

NC got AG to say everything was handed over but there's now a question of an email that wasn't handed over.

Ahh, but it seems that AG was able to provide a satisfactory answer.

From TT

AG - I dont share anything with anyone when doing an lx
NC - the allegations were extremely dangerous for FU (DU?) and KD (KS?) amd should have been escalated at one if true?
AG - I cant talk about what ur describing just now. I would never discuss with anyone else
NC - are u saying u were making the decisions? Noone higher telling u what to do
AG - yes noone telling me what to do. My role was determine all evidence and then what I've found. These allegations came from me and id not discussed with leadership team

AG's latest answer is replied to by a noticabe blerp of Club Orange from The Ring. It then returns to its passive Darker Than Black But Somehow Still Grey state.

A long time ago in the midst of some maternity related discrimination against me, I actually had someone from HR tell me that they didn't think I'd take it to tribunal as they could see my wages and knew I was part time!

fucking hell - i was fired while pregnant (it was a tad more complicated than that, but that is what it boiled down to) and when i said "that's illegal" the MD just said "you can't afford to take us to court, you're redundant and pregnant" so i just got out my union card and called the number on it right there. Utter fuckers.

Another handmaiden prepared to throw herself under the bus it seems. Absolutely unbelievable.

Re DU’s previous potentially vexatious behaviour…

We have to be careful there. People experiencing discrimination are likely to experience it in more than one place. There will have been a time that people challenging racism could have been painted as vexatious.

Then again the woman who appeared to specialise in helping family and friends take employers to tribunal for disability discrimination (it’s easy and there’s nothing to lose. It’s always worth a try) certainly seemed vexatious to me!

Have a 💐 from me too, @Jimmyneutronsforehead.

Is this lunch or a short break?

Or walk out to his own car.

I'm also in the public sector and have been trained that behaving like this would be a "micro-aggression". Micro-aggressions are a form of discrimination.

Caught in a landslide, no escape from reality😁

From TT

NC - do u feel confident that everything u produced has turned up in this bundle
AG - yes

[Turns to another doc]
NC - [reads] do u know what that other email was?
AG - thats from MSF so dont know

NC - shes addressing a number of ppl including u so would be an email in ur possession ?
AG - thats about witnesses
NC - now a few Qs about... sorry lost track of time J - might be best to have a break

Fifer : no gaunie lee. My heid's birlin. This seemed affie significant but ah'll need tae wait on some clever * tae tell ays how, ken?

I think also NC is being cognisant of time and it would do her no good in the eyes of the panel if she took all the time it would take to cross examine KS on every point of failure. So it does make sense for her to let the letters do their own talking.

She did ask about replies which was crucial because KS telling Upton of JD’s supportive comments - which he improperly asked KS to pass on — she admitted she should not have done.

There was a whole thread on this a while back. If the search function wasn't so awful I'd try to find it..

from herald
12:01pm
Ms Cunningham tells Employment Judge Sandy Kemp she still has quite a bit of questioning to do with Ms Glancey.
Given that we're at midday though, he says there should be a short break.
Back shortly.
11:59am
Ms Glancey said he has produced all evidence she has in relation to this investigation at every opportunity.
Ms Cunningham has asked whether she is confident absolutely everything is there.
Yes, she replies.

@NImumconfused Yes it's NHS Scotland Bullying and Harassment Policy, I presume holds in Fife. Sandie genuinely thinks this is something maybe she can sort out with her colleague.

https://workforce.nhs.scot/policies/bullying-and-harassment-policy-overview/