NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

"My concern is always that no matter what advice we provide ECD in relation to alternatives to suspension it is always disregarded"

"It would be useful to know Mechelle how many in EC are currently suspended"

What is are ECD and EC?

Break for ten mins

Since Jerabils posted there have been 2, 3 or 4 in the lobby. There are currently 3.

10 minutes break now.
Edit at 11:07 - currently none.

JR - AG penultimate line - you would have it out. We know SP complained saying she didn't say that. She said that she said, she'd say something, not have it out. You agreed. your email, sorry for misunderstanding, go with your version condolences on bereavement

SP might have been a bit distressed and upset too, did she get any support re losing her father?

From TT

AG - the two didn't say same thing
JR - 10th Oct, further statement SP, supplementary written response, did she say how prepared?
AG - no
JR - 415, final version of report, 2 earlier drafts of report. first draft 1st Nov, second 6th Nov.

J - (Big Sond) let me look, date of this is 31 Oct

Big Sond has his readin glesses on. He's double checkin somehing.

AG - auto generated message date
J - which date completed?
AG - 4th Nov
J - when we look at 415, submited 13th (nov/dec), right
AG - yes
JR - as ix officer how write report
AG - use expertise and knowledge, balance of probabilities.

Fifer : aye this a soonds fine likes. If they'd done ony ae this in the first place, there wouldnae be 50 shifts added tae the Vic's A&E staffin crisis, n ah'd be at ma work the day booking the thick end ae a grand.

JR - productions, later in bundle, emails from you not produced first time round, but first to Adam watson email. Please note, C rep said no need for admin emails
AG - before Feb, I thought it meant letters, emails btwn me and MSF, but not administrative emails, diary commitments, trying to get meetings in

Fifer : same story as Dr Searle. Failure to locate erse, unknown if baith hauns were involved in search process. Endae the day, The High Heidyins are responsible for disclosure, no the front line sodjers. No blamin Ange here, but a hink The Board might...

JR - then what did you do after that point to find emails we see?
AG - guidance from IT, including search terms, key words and to include everything that was saved.
JR - 1459 - hand written notes from ix meeting with SP
AG - my writing
JR - MSF she would say something, your

J - hang on

Big Sond needs a meenit.

JR - AG penultimate line - you would have it out. We know SP complained saying she didn't say that. She said that she said, she'd say something, not have it out. You agreed. your email, sorry for misunderstanding, go with your version condolences on bereavement
AG - I agreed it was my wording.
JR - why go with SP version
AG - in notes she said say something, didn't think it imp. One was my interpretation, one what SP said.
JR - IX notes, I said if I was in the same position again, I'd have to say something. What do you think?
AG - don't think it's OK confronting colleagues, you go to your manager, don't think it's something we should say.

J - break for 10.

Agree totally. It’s proper fucked.

I'm glad to see Bez pop up again, btw. Hope BBC Scotland will be gein ye the sloat back.

I pointed that out and I really wish I'd never noticed it: as you say, you can't unsee it!

Wow! At least there were a few sane people in HR (even if they did go on sick leave a lot).

The management distraction (and expense) this one Dr and his fawning supervisor have caused.

On the question of why Kate Searl behaves this way - Upton is said to have got a colleague, I think another doctor? - in trouble previously. Searle may have been aware of that and it fed into how she reacted to Upton.

AG - don't think it's OK confronting colleagues, you go to your manager, don't think it's something we should say

Im not clear if this is AG quoting, or AG's own words - if the latter, it's a disappointment, she's been OK so far, but isn't 'confronting the colleague' what you're supposed to do, in the first place, then escalate it?
Not 'confront' as in aggressively, but talk to them about the incident in q.

Same reason he couldn't attend court without a dozen support animals.

from herald
11:08am
That's Jane Russell KC (who represents NHS Fife and Dr Upton) finished with this witness.
We're taking a short break, for approximately 10 minutes before Naomi Cunningham will begin her cross examination of Ms Glancey.
11:07am
We hear that Ms Peggie complained about the written notes in the investigation.
She said she did not say she would "have it out with Dr Upton".
It was agreed with Ms Glancey to amend it to she would "say something".
Ms Glancey is asked for her opinion on Ms Peggie wanting to say something to Dr Upton if she was put in the same position again.
She said she does not think it is okay to "confront" a colleague. She said Ms Peggie should have taken her concern to a manager.

On second thoughts, that's clearly Bez' cousin Rab, fae Glesga. My mistake.

She went to her manager though didn’t she? And got no help.

Me neither.

So, who were the cabal of 6? I recall ED and KS, but the others?

Also, how many of them handed over the apparently truncated email chain?

I'm finding your summaries from the Herald v useful thanks, Chariothorses, alongside the blow-by-blow TT reporting.

This is madness, if you're not allowed to leave a changing room when someone else is in there in case you upset them then by the end of the day you'd have the entire staff trapped in a changing room.
Or is it possible I have that wrong and there only certain 'women' that you have to stay in the changing room for?
If so, how do they differentiate between the women you must stay in the channing room for and women you don't?

Dusting off name change

I've just about caught up in these very fast moving pages- thanks all
I've been pondering as to why DrU is so emotional now he's identifying as a transwoman? Presumably oestrogen though I've no idea about his medical history.
Seems to require a lot of support

PS love Dame Katy and glad she's back 😁
PPS On a more serious note, attended quite a few births- never saw a baby needing their sex 'assigning' 🙂
PPPS Sandie looks so well compared with Feb sessions- and has a fab handbag collection!

TT's 1st of the morning tweets

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1948288981646348529.html

And how do you know the person who came in and immediately left did it because of you? Maybe they forgot something.

AG - don't think it's OK confronting colleagues, you go to your manager, don't think it's something we should say.

So another staff member who thinks Sandie should be quiet and suck it up knowing that if Sandie had gone to her manager all she’d be told is that DrU has the right to change in F CR and if she didn’t like it, she could go use the broom closet at the other end of the hospital. It’s despairing how much we’ve indoctrinated our DDs into thinking that being kind is the penultimate goal and include myself in that.

edited: but also this seems to point to AG, who headed the investigation (don’t know their job title/role) had already decided that SP was in the wrong right from the get go…

Aye, here a wee minute. I'm interpretin for the guid fowk of The Kingdom! Chewin the Fat wis guid tho, but then Burnistoun wis better.

We've aye ready hid ELEVEN!

Whit aboot this ane

I shall leave this here for people to draw their own conclusions:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Al5wW8I8In0

(give it a second to be approved…)