NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

Agree! I know we shouldn't comment on appearances blah de blah, but she's looking bloody good.

She is not alone. This is the line TRAs are taking. I believe it is also what the Good Law Project is arguing in its attempt to get a judicial review of the EHRC guidance. I expressed my personal view of GLP on one of the earlier threads. Basically, they are right sometimes, but only in the same way that a broken clock is sometimes right.

I have delivered a couple of babies in A&E. I recorded the sex in the notes. Thinking about it it's normally the parents who register the birth & they don't have any medical oversight. This means that any assignment of sex at birth is done by the parents.

NC specifically requested metadata disclosure after the Feb part of the hearing.

Mine was misbehaving yesterday, as well.

Just buffering for ages, and telling me that the post was ‘forbidden’.

from herald
10:20am
In March 2024, she was given the documents relating to the case, including NHS Fife's bullying and harassment policy, details of the allegations and paperwork relating to Ms Peggie's occupational health assessment.
At a meeting in mid-March, Anne Hamilton, a HR advisor, give Ms Glancey details of the people who needed to be interviewed. Ms Glancey said she hoped the meeting dates for these interviews would have been sent out in her absence after she went on annual leave shortly after.
The people on her list were Dr Upton, Ms Peggie, Dr Pitt and Dr Searle.

JKR offered to review NS’s autobiography for free.
And Spiked said they’d be more than happy to enable this!

WhenDS was born, the hospital had already sent details to the registrar electronically and we had a printout we had to take, including sex and DOB, so we had to check, add his name andDH’s name, etc. There is no option for the parents to decide which sex to record

From TT

J (Big Sond) - you will take an oath.
AG (we believe) - takes oath
J - asks for slow
JR - full name
AG - angela eliza glancey
JR - how long at Fife
AG - 28 years this yea
JR - job
AG - clinical nurse manager Responsibiliites?
AG - v fast list
J - slow

Fifer : Ca' canny hen, plenty ae time

AG - oncology, haemotology (among others)
R how long known AG - 20 years
JR - interactions
AG - no problems
JR - know GC views
AG no
JR - first involvement in this
AG - teams message
JR - what?
AG - internal incident, needed an investigating person, would either of us do it.
JR - who was other colleague
AG - wendy hutchinson
JR - did GM give you details?
AG - no
JR - what did you say?
AG - colleague starting new job, had just finished another IX and have scop

JR - you said you'd come in to do interviews, what was that
AG - advanced practicioner post interview
JR - role of investigating manager
AG - be impartial, establish facts, get statements, meet people and ask certain qu. try and assertain facts. Once complete, compile report
JR - after report, what are hte options?
AG - can decide no further action, secondly may be some internal learning through support/action plan, third recommend conduct/capability hearing.
JR - you were involved 29th feb, after suspension and review of suspension. Involved in them
AG - no, was just sent an email about it once appointed ix manager
JR - 1324 - looking for 13th march anne hamilton sent, statements sent to you. WIll find. It's right AH sent statements mid march?
AG - yes
J - 1311
JR - thanks, 10:05 email.
AH sent statements to you
JR - email you mentioned about return to work
AG - the one from GM, just says FYI as investigating manager
JR - involvement in return to work?
AG - no

Fifer : no involved in much, probably fur the guid tae be fair ken hen ken.

JR - 776, 10th April, from CM to you re ix asking for electronic notes, what were they. Middle para refs notes
AG - probably paperwork, not notes, once asked to do ix, GM wasn't able to meet ED to get info, GM left it in office for me, that's what she was asking for, susx check list, DU statement, LC statement, OC referral for SP, and B&H policy and workforce policy

JR - was was workforce policy
AG - just general, conduct
JR - when did you get it
AG - prob mid-march, went on hols end march, just before
JR - first meeting with HR about ix?
AG - met AH
JR - when?
AG - mid march then michele when she returned
JR - what with AH
AG - gave names of peopl DU, KS Sp - others
JR - and next contact
AG - hoped meeting notes had gone out but hadn't then 17th april with Michele, also to include EP
JR - why hadn't notes gone out
AG - I was on leave, HR didn't want to sign off without speaking to me
JR - meeting with michele, more info on that AG - who to invite first, when etc. JR - DU, ED, LC, SP, KS and EP - 6 people?
AG - yes sandie last.
JR - 809 - 12th april email you to MSF and others about witness meetings 1 hr each. Same day, letter to SP, 336

JR - recall that letter re initial meeting
AG - yes
JR what incident informing her about
AG - incident 24/25 dec
JR -described as HI in letter, look at HI policy One of the docs you looked at?
AG - yes
JR -page 570, para 2.1, describes in bullets. WHich do you think relevant

Fifer : oft, muckle question this ane

Delurking to say I love this
JKR has a habit of buying naice bags for terfy wims, perhaps Sandie should be on her list too, she has an eye for them.

And thank you all on here (bar the TRA derailers and ploppers, but then maybe not as they just expose again and again how batshit their ideology is).

Not loving so much the scolding to just stick to discussing the Tribunal, the diversions and chats foster a community for us hags. I even have porridge pancakes on my to try list after seeing a recipe on here yesterday.

@SerafinasGoose that is awful 😣 I hope that one remaining colleague understands why you are so formal with him.

This approach is something that JR has done a few times now, going through the NHSF bullying and harassment policy and getting witnesses to identify the grounds that apply to SP. That would usually be an effective approach but how will the panel view this with SP having been exonerated by NHSF?

@ickky @Floisme HRs role is to advise and guide not to do.

There was a huge change when it moved from Personnel to HR. Too many managers were leaving everything to HR. HRs became huge so everyone started asking questions.

To “streamline” and reduce costs HR were cut to the bone and changed from doers to advisors so managers had to start managing.

There was that story recently when the registrar ticked the wrong box, so a female baby's birth certificate stated she was male.

Although the parents noticed it straight away, they couldn't get the certificate reissued, only get a note added in the margin. It seemed very unfair, as it was the registrar's admin error, but the parents were told it was their responsibility.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/nov/19/baby-girl-registered-wrong-sex-mansfield-registration-office

Sorry for dragging the conversation back to this but the idea put me in mind of the Church of Quivering Brethren in Cold Comfort Farm. (Motto: "The Earth Will Burn, But We Will Quiver.")

Perhaps we could form the Church of Quivering Terfs.

From TT

JR -page 570, para 2.1, describes in bullets. WHich do you think relevant
AG - 9 chrx GR being one, harassment inc humiliating or offensive (summary)
JR - other docs you may have seen, this is text of datix, did you see?
AG - yes
JR - 439 - DU complaint about HI 29th dec '23. Dated 23rd Jan.
AG - yes
JR - 533 - DU formal complaint, see that?
AG - was sent to me later by AH
JR - 799 -
AG - sorry must have been michele
JR - when seen first time?
AG - 12th june
JR - 806 - 16th April, from Michele to you, asking to discuss progressing as matter of urgency. WHy urgent and what stage ix at.

Fifer : it's gey queer the fake second investigation is takin so lang, when the real first one was done n dustit wi three emails an a coffee break. A mean cmon Ang, yer on the taxpeyer poond here, get a shift on eh.

AG - urgency because believe org knew of legal case, but mid april was the start of IX

Fifer : so basically yer a tailor noo. The Board need some bespoke Erse Protection PPE n Shelley Money is indisposed.

JR - your email 828 replying, say EP hadn't been mentioned
AG - wasn't till 17th
JR - EP involved then
AG - Emailed later that day to introduce self and as for any docs re incident
JR - EP invited to meeting, can see 18th April
AG - couldn't attend 26th
JR - one to ED and one to KS - 1341 - LC 817 all sent 18th April
AG - yes
JR - also 18th michele emails you, ED advises issues around SP leaving cubicles, need to know issues and what was done

from herald
10:27am
In an email to Ms Peggie, Ms Glancey informed her she had received a complaint about the Christmas Eve. The incident is described as a "hate incident".
Looking at NHS Fife's harassment policy, Ms Glancey said the clauses relating to protected characteristics, gender reassignment and the policy mentioned investigating any language that could be "embarrassing, humiliating or offensive".
By mid-April, Ms Glancey was asked to progress the investigation "as a matter of urgency".
Ms Glancey said this is because information of an employment tribunal had emerged. But this is also the start of Ms Glancey's internal investigation.

Well, she does have NC on her side. Mind you, I'd feel bloody good with NC onside, but the chance of me looking smart and coordinated would still be close to zero.

Hats off to Sandie. I hope she's aware of these threads and how much support she has.

you know its a parody account?
(regular hilarious mock fights with JKR)

Well bugger me, they've started on time, I didn't even bother to look at TT until now! Off to catch up!

AG - urgency because believe org knew of legal case, but mid april was the start of Ix

You know in those old films how they denoted the passage of time? A calendar, a wind blowing the pages off.... Dec...Jan...Feb...March...April..

It's now April, and all the time SP's professional reputation and emotional wellbeing was at risk. But now it's urgent because of legal case!

from herald
10:31am
Ms Glancey is informed of the patient safety concerns. She tells the tribunal this was the first time she had learned of the allegations that Ms Peggie walked out on a patient because of Dr Upton's presence.
She said this was something that would need to be investigating.
We also hear that Ms Glancey told Dr Searle it "was no ideal" for her to be Dr Upton's support during the medic's evidence session.
Dr Searle was told she would be interviewed first to ensure that her evidence was heard without the presence of Dr Upton.

But I think the public sector equality duty relates to the Equality Act.

And all employers are covered by the Equality Act.

And anyone providing a service is covered by the Equality Act.

So she’s on a hiding to nothing.

Fifer : so basically yer a tailor noo. The Board need some bespoke Erse Protection
😂😂😂

Re (see what I did there) Sandie knowing how much support she has, one of the things in my to-do list today is sending a card to her c/o the hospital.