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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

1000 replies

nauticant · 23/07/2025 21:35

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

OP posts:
Thread gallery
26
chilling19 · 24/07/2025 10:06

👋

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 10:06

InvisibleDragon · 24/07/2025 10:03

Something I noticed from KS yesterday was that (at least from TT) she had never questioned at all what DU told her. Not just the facts of the case, but the motivation behind SP's behavior:

  • SP waited until the CR was empty so there were no witnesses
  • SP compared DU to Isla Bryson / a convicted rapist
  • SP was blocking DU from leaving

These were presented as facts by DU to KS and accepted and repeated as fact by KS - not just internally to colleagues (which was wholly inappropriate anyway) but also to the Tribunal. To the extent that "SP mentioned Isla Bryson" nearly became an accepted fact in the case.

I'm interested by how unreflective KS seems to be. And how this seems to be a hallmark of the TRA movement - that the opinions and (in some cases lies) of people "on your side" is accepted reflexively as truth. And anything the "other side" says can't be trusted at all.

I disagree with your last paragraph as it seems CM (and HR) spotted the issues with SP’s investigation. So it was noted internally within the NHS that they weren’t going about it the right way, and CM attempted damage control by lifting the suspension against KS’s wishes. We’ll see what the HR witness says today.

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 10:06

Witness seems quite cheerful. Wonder how long that will last

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 10:06

TT is saying 10am start, but 'there may be some delays'.
Like the Pope may believe in the trinity, transubstantiation, and the virgin birth😄
I hope I'm proved wrong.

ickky · 24/07/2025 10:07

I missed her name, who is this witness?

GreenFriedTomato · 24/07/2025 10:07

Angela glancey

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 10:08

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 10:06

TT is saying 10am start, but 'there may be some delays'.
Like the Pope may believe in the trinity, transubstantiation, and the virgin birth😄
I hope I'm proved wrong.

mea culpa😀

PersonIrresponsible · 24/07/2025 10:08

This tribunal never seems to surprise me: today we started on time.

I say we. I mean them.

possomblossom · 24/07/2025 10:09

Cookiepuss · 24/07/2025 09:25

As I've just been paid I would like to do a bit of gardening today - just to ensure my efforts go in the right direction, can someone please remind me of the details of Faye (as I can't recall her surname)? Thank you.

@nauticant has it at the beginning of the thread. If you bookmark where you are now and go back to page 1, you should find it.

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 10:10

Clinical nurse manager, knew SP 20 yrs, never had a problem and didn't know SP's GC views which shows she did not bring 'politics' into the workplace, like drU did, bigtime!

nauticant · 24/07/2025 10:12

It's noteworthy that even though SP had been raging about trans people around the hospital for years everyone seems to be saying that they had no idea of her GC views.

OP posts:
ickky · 24/07/2025 10:12

Well she seems clear and concise so far....

Appalonia · 24/07/2025 10:12

You can read The Scotsman live blog here. It's quite useful for brief summaries for what's happening
https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/sandie-peggie-v-beth-uptonnhs-fife-live-top-nurse-and-hr-official-to-be-questioned-by-trans-employment-tribunal-5239715

FannyCann · 24/07/2025 10:13

I know an experienced social worker who lost her job because she'd pointed out the fact that Dylan Mulvaney wasn't in fact, a woman, but a gay man. She was unable to get legal representation and last I heard was working in a supermarket, just to make ends meet. Absolutely disgraceful, and I wonder how many of these cases are that never get to see the light of day? So many lives ruined and so many women silenced due to this insane ideology.

Shocking. Social work is such a thankless job anyway and there’s a shortage of them. Why are all these employers so happy to lose valuable experienced staff in this way. It’s ridiculous.

MarieDeGournay · 24/07/2025 10:13

nauticant · 24/07/2025 10:12

It's noteworthy that even though SP had been raging about trans people around the hospital for years everyone seems to be saying that they had no idea of her GC views.

..and racism and homophobia against her own daughter, don't forget!

Notfinanciallyresponsibleforyou · 24/07/2025 10:14

MyAmpleSheep · 24/07/2025 09:45

They are not an affluent demographic, and the cost of all that private E adds up quickly.

The most remarkable thing about JKR is that she is willing to spend money.

Unfortunately those nasty hags have some spare cash which some of us are now willing to make contributions to Maya and Naomi. So thanks TRAs for being just a little bit too pushy in the eyes of the general public 🍸

FannyCann · 24/07/2025 10:15

While we are waiting for lift off let’s just have a moment of appreciation for Sandie’s handbag collection and her colour coordination. I only noticed yesterday. Now I can’t wait to see what’s next!

NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40
InvisibleDragon · 24/07/2025 10:15

Firealarms · 24/07/2025 10:06

I disagree with your last paragraph as it seems CM (and HR) spotted the issues with SP’s investigation. So it was noted internally within the NHS that they weren’t going about it the right way, and CM attempted damage control by lifting the suspension against KS’s wishes. We’ll see what the HR witness says today.

I agree with you that there were people in NHS Fife who spotted issues with the investigation and who did not accept DU's word as truth.

I was referring more to the general TWAW movement and KS as an example of how these thought terminating cliches totally distort world view.

ThatCyanCat · 24/07/2025 10:16

nauticant · 24/07/2025 10:12

It's noteworthy that even though SP had been raging about trans people around the hospital for years everyone seems to be saying that they had no idea of her GC views.

I guess if you can hide your racism and homophobia perfectly for 30 years and reveal it only after pissing off Upton, you are a rare creature.

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2025 10:17

DrBlackbird · 24/07/2025 09:56

Good grief. Does that this mean that every time and for every conceivable circumstance that women have to keep going back to the SC for another judgement? There’s been one for the Scottish govts policy on policy boards, but another separate one will be needed for prisons. Another one for hospitals. Another one for RRCs and so on. Won’t the SC get fed up with such an expensive and time consuming process?!

It's absolutely outrageous that JR is claiming that the Supreme Court ruling applies only to public boards. If you read the damn thing - which JR surely has - it makes it absolutely 100% clear that it applies to all single-sex spaces/activities, including sport, lesbian clubs, changing rooms etc. There is no doubt at all in its wording. So JR is being economical with the actualité, to put it politely.

lechiffre55 · 24/07/2025 10:17

FannyCann · 24/07/2025 10:15

While we are waiting for lift off let’s just have a moment of appreciation for Sandie’s handbag collection and her colour coordination. I only noticed yesterday. Now I can’t wait to see what’s next!

That looks like a child's response to the question "How would you dress your Barbie doll?"

Chariothorses · 24/07/2025 10:17

from herald

10:12am
An investigating manager has to be impartial, the tribunal hears.
She was tasked with getting statements from all relevant parties and arranging meetings to investigate.
Solutions could have involved recommending report was taken forward for conduct hearings, or further training.
10:08am
On February 29 2024, she received a call from Gillian Malone, head of nursing, to ask if she had scope to take over the internal investigation against Ms Peggie.
10:07am
Given she has worked for NHS Fife so long she said she has known Ms Peggie "a very long time".
She clarifies at least 20 or so years.
She has never had any issues with the A&E nurse and was unaware of her gender critical views.
10:06am
We're underway nicely on time.
Angela Glancey has taken an oath and is now being questioned by Jane Russell KC.
She has worked at NHS Fife for 27 years. She now works as a clinical nurse manager.
Recent changes to her job means she oversees haematology, acute oncology, neurology and dermatology.

NeatOchreShark · 24/07/2025 10:17

FannyCann · 24/07/2025 10:15

While we are waiting for lift off let’s just have a moment of appreciation for Sandie’s handbag collection and her colour coordination. I only noticed yesterday. Now I can’t wait to see what’s next!

she's defo got that calculatedly-effortless French chic going on. Gorg!

Lins77 · 24/07/2025 10:17

It's a shame they didn't call Rehana, really. Her evidence would have been interesting, but maybe it will come out in AG's.

SerafinasGoose · 24/07/2025 10:17

ZippyPearlPeer · 24/07/2025 01:13

JK Rowling’s latest post on X has set me thinking on the very different experiences many woman who have complained about sexual or racial discrimination will have faced.

I highly doubt that if it had been a woman raising a complaint there would have been an email to 20+ consultants with a “we all support the woman” dictat, without anyone minimising to “oh but I’m sure Mr X didn’t mean any offence”… “are you sure you’ve not misunderstood/misinterpreted”.

I also suspect many woman wouldn’t report feeling “unsafe” based on a challenging conversation with a male colleague, lest they are labeled a trouble maker or have professional competency questioned if they are crying/upset at work. It is so common that woman aren’t likely to be believed or have their experience minimised that I suspect they’d be much less likely to have reported an incident in a similar vein.

That is another piece of the maddening pie, and such a glaring example that trans women are, in fact, not treated the same as woman. I just can’t see NHS Fife, unequivocally believing the hypothetical woman (maybe she’s Pete’s sister!) and taking such extreme lengths to protect her as has happened here.

I can tell you from my own experience. I don't work in health but in higher education; a large public sector area also captured by GI - probably to the same extent as the NHS.

I complained of sexual harassment when I was stalked, rubbed up against, and harassed by an older male colleague. I documented these occasions, and after a couple of months, when a clear pattern had emerged and I'd convinced myself I wasn't imaginging things, I reported him.

The shit I took. Thankfully my then departmental head was sympathetic and supportive - it only transpired a long time later that they'd known about this man for aeons, his behaviour had been rugswept, and he should never have got near me in the first place.

His union rep tried to excoriate my character. I was a new staff member then - he'd been there decades - and his rep wanted to collect reports from all colleagues on his character and mine. None of them knew me and a lot were keen to exonerate their eccentric, 'fun' colleague.

When I read the witness reports, I was devastated. Two witnesses did support me, the other two not only mentioned not having seen anything amiss (no issue if they hadn't) but they sang his praises from the rooftops with the clear implication that I was lying. Most involved have left now - as to the one colleague who remains, I am only coldly and formally civil.

When I came back from stress-related sick leave (diagnosed cPTSD) I wanted to hide in a corner and not face anyone. I kept my head down for about two years. Meantime, he announces he's leaving (having been told he'd likely be asked to go) and all the emails start to circulate, including from the witnesses who contributed the report, saying what a brilliant colleague he was and how missed he'd be. That broke me.

Final instalment - my employers gagged me from ever speaking of this on pain of disciplinary action. Even the more recent banning of NDAs, had this been in place, would have done nothing to help me in that situation.

I give you the UK public sector.

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