NHS Fife tries to silence nurse - Sandie Peggie vs NHS Fife Health Board and Dr Beth Upton - thread #40

[nauticant]

Sandie Peggie, a nurse at Victoria Hospital in Kirkcaldy (VH), has brought claims in the employment tribunal against her employer; Fife Health Board (the Board) and another employee, Dr B Upton. Ms Peggie’s claims are of sexual harassment, harassment related to a protected belief, indirect discrimination and victimisation. Dr Upton claims to be a transwoman, that is observed as male at birth but asserting a female gender identity.

The Employment Tribunal hearing started on Monday 3 February 2025 and was expected to last 2 weeks. However, after 2 weeks it was not complete and it adjourned part-heard. It resumed on 16 July and the last day of evidence will be 28 July and then there will be 2 days of submissions from counsel meaning that the hearing will end on 30 July.

The hearing commenced with Sandie Peggie giving evidence. Dr Beth Upton gave evidence from Thursday 6 February to Wednesday 12 February.

Access to view the hearing remotely was obtainable by sending an email request to [email protected] by 5pm on Wednesday 9 July. Detailed instructions were provided here:

drive.google.com/file/d/16-9POEZ7yHWUr6EmbfquJZO18Gv78bSm/view

The hearing is being live tweeted by x.com/tribunaltweets and there's additional information here: tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-005 and tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/peggie-vs-fife-health-board-and-dr-bd6. This also has threadreaderapp archives of live-tweeting of the sessions of the hearing for those who can't follow on Twitter, for example: archive.ph/WSSjg.

An alternative to Twitter is to use Nitter: nitter.net/tribunaltweets or nitter.poast.org/tribunaltweets

Links to previous threads #1 to #29 can be found in the header of thread #30.

Thread 30: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375337-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-30
Thread 31: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5375819-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-31
Thread 32: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376072-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-32
Thread 33: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5376608-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-33
Thread 34: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377387-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-34
Thread 35: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5377598-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-35
Thread 36 mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378031-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-36
Thread 37: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378200-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-37
Thread 38: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378463-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-38
Thread 39: mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5378747-nhs-fife-tries-to-silence-nurse-sandie-peggie-vs-nhs-fife-health-board-and-dr-beth-upton-thread-39

Jeez, Searle was literally Upton's emotional support animal, eh? Over and above.

Oh, i missed the handbag discussion. Can you elaborate for me, please?

From TT

AG - first time I'd heard anything about patient care, was due to meet DU in a couple of weeks.
JR - about DU meeting. email from you to KS, asked if she could be DU support, you say not ideal I've had a chat and we will iv you first
AG - would normally hear DU first
AG - but if KS was sitting in important we heard her evidence first.
JR - now it's april, incident was dec, complaint dated 23rd Jan. WHy delay to interviews?
AG - as said, only asked to take ix on 29th Feb, can't say why delay before, not involved. From when I took on annual leave, me and michele, made getting meetings in.
JR - person helping was michele sinclair farrow, issues?
AG - unfortunately MSF unwell, with her being off and leave it was hard to arrange.
JR - to ix activity in may, EP statement, sent to you 24th april

Fifer : abdy that's thinkin 'this new investigation is a big piece ay Erse Protection Fake News Bampotism' tak a sip. Nae surprise The Board were on the hurry up tho, things were takin a detour tae the Cardenden shops and thir nakit erses were getting gey chapped by that NE wind.

We also hear that Ms Glancey told Dr Searle it "was no ideal" for her to be Dr Upton's support during the medic's evidence session.
edited to add but I suppose KS did anyway

Jeez, back off, Kate! Didn't she have any work to be getting on with?

Ugh, I know. Why TF can't he attend an interview on his own? FFS.

I'm so sorry.

What about whistleblower protection? I always wondered how that woudl actually work in practise.

We also hear that Ms Glancey told Dr Searle it "was no ideal" for her to be Dr Upton's support during the medic's evidence session.

Yet another witness distancing themselves from the radioactive Dr Kate Searle.

Cheer up Katie, you and Beth will always have female changing rooms Paris.

@NeatOchreShark adding that your comments have given me hope that my v kind DC may, one day, see what’s wrong with TWAW. Though it may well be a long wait.

Yeah I wouldn't mind an explanation too please.
The person in the photos with the handbags is Upton not Peggie.
Don't get the joke.

Is that "not ideal" as in "crashingly stupid", "borderline illegal" or "absolutely disastrous"?

from herald
10:38am
Ms Glancey said that each witness gets the opportunity to make amendments to meeting notes. Dr Kate Searle changed some of hers, as did Dr Upton.
We're not given any more details about this, but perhaps we will hear more in cross.
10:33am
Why was there a delay in investigating the complaints of Christmas eve, and formal complaints in January.
Ms Glancey said she wasn't part of the earlier discussions and there had been annual leave from staff which made it difficult to get people in the same room to conduct the meetings.

So it was KS, not DrU, that asked if she could sit in on his interview, was it?

You wonder how long this investigation would have spent in the long grass without the court case to frighten Fife into getting it done.

Much research on how whistleblowers are punished for going public. It’s a very rare case where organisations thank the WB for highlighting problems within the organisation even if/when it saves lives and saves the organisation from further reputational or financial harm.

Less emotional support animal, more control the narrative...

10:38am
Ms Glancey said that each witness gets the opportunity to make amendments to meeting notes. Dr Kate Searle changed some of hers, as did Dr Upton.
We're not given any more details about this, but perhaps we will hear more in cross

I noticed that - were they the only two to make amendments? Do 'we' have details of what they wanted changed? Were they the same changes??

They were entitled to make changes same as everyone else of course.

Why is JR drawing everyone's attention to the fact that NHSF considers it wrong for SP to have left the changing room when she went into to find Upton there? Especially when the implication is that the right thing for SP to have done would have been fo have forced herself to stay in there for Upton's benefit.

This witness is being very clear over her timeline and version, no hesitation or trying to think how to answer going on.

No the person in the photos with the handbags is Sandie Peggie.

I said in the last thread that I liked her colour coordination. I only have a black, navy and tan handbag as it basically covers all my clothes. But I aimed to Be More Sandie.

(I am actually going out today and plan to have a pootle around the shops for a brighter handbag.... we have an excellent second hand dress shop that sells on consignment and they have been known to have some lovely things.....Be More Sandie starts now )

ETA- I was bullied out of my job about 4 years ago by a manager who had serious form and I just walked away and decided not to make waves. I have always regretted it. SP is an inspiration to me for this also.

JR - you mention resus, missing patient incidents and the incident in changing room with DU saying you made a point of staying in CR. Why did you not include allegations of leaving when saw DU?
AG - wasn't any ill manner in that, SP chose to remove herself, which is why I didnt add them.

JR is saying that SP leaving made Upton unhappy so was wrong (!) and harassment (no words).

She is also at pains to stress that her involvement didn’t start until after SP had started legal proceedings.

From TT

AG - yes
JR - 456 - ix meeting with ED on 26th april
AG - yes
JR - 469 - ix iv with KS also 26th april. Amended version (bundle ref) explain process notes were sent to witnesses and amendments made
AG - each meeting explain process, they get notes from meeting and have 2 weeks
AG - to make any changes.
KS changed some of hers

Fifer : Surprise FC : nil

JR - last thing in april meeting LC 26th april.
AG - that's blank
JR -
AG - just my qu
JR - did you meet her
AG 0 yes
JR - 9 may met DU, yes
AG - yes
JR - 1420 - DU makes amendments as well.
AG - yes

Fifer : Astonishment United : nil

JR - LC filled in version, 463, A
G - yes
JR - EP's is 478
AG - yes
JR - manuscript comments by EP at ???, I can't see them.
AG - blank
JR - you said MSF had absences, have a spreadsheet of those.
AG - yes
JR - don't need to go into what for, colours show off work
JR - roughly what proportion in/off work
AG - less white days (in work) than coloured (off) 6 months with no work days
JR - how did you do interviews with MSF
AG - sure, iv's don't in site in hospital, intros, read standard NHS scot intro, ask qus which are pre-populated with HR
JR - seen blank templates
AG - yes that it, we ask the qus, answered and further questions depending on those, then anything to add.
JR - letter to SP on 19th july, but in run up emails with MSF about what should be in letter.
AG - yes
JR - you say is this ok about draft
JR - you mention resus, missing patient incidents and the incident in changing room with DU saying you made a point of staying in CR. Why did you not include allegations of leaving when saw DU?
AG - wasn't any ill manner in that, SP chose to remove herself, which is why I didn't add them
JR - this letter adds more incidents than first letter, why did you add?
AG - I didn't have info at first when I met DU 1st may, asked re dec and she mentioned other incidents she was concerned about but hadn't raised. Asked if I wanted to know. Said yes
AG - DU was unsure of dates but

J (Big Sond) - pause please

AG - incidents discussed 9th may with DU then had first meeting with SF and SP, discussed what it was about. MSF and I had further discussion after and thought important to add

Suggest you take another look at the photos in the thread gallery. The person with the handbags is Peggie, not Upton. She has turned up to the tribunal every day with handbags that are colour co-ordinated with her outfits.